Episode 10 - Steph from Niagara Falls - She asked for help but could not see it

Danny and Steph

Hello. today we have for this new episode, for the Inner Camino, Podcast. And, lady, a lovely lady from, the states, Steph. And, Steph, can you, introduce yourself to the listeners...Yeah. Hi. I'm Steph. I, am living over here in Niagara Falls, New York. I'm originally from Ohio. so if you give me a little spicy, you'll hear the accent. But, otherwise, I'm living over here. I'm, practicing, or I'm a clinical, trainer. So I train therapists, and I am an active and practicing therapist for using...EMDR or eye movement recents or eye movement desensitization or reprocessing...

which helps folks with trauma in particular. Okay. So you mean you said EMDR? Yes. Yep. Okay. Yeah. I'm very aware of that stuff. Really good. so,

how many times did you walk the Camino? Is that one time, or are you hooked and you walked already twenty five times or something? Well, I kinda went a little backwards. In twenty twenty four, I did my first Camino. I I started out of Porto and followed the coastal route all the way up to Santiago and made it to Santiago. and then this past year in the beginning of May, I walked from Saint Jean Pierre de Port all the way to Burgos. The states, they only let you have about fourteen days off, so we have to use them accordingly and move pretty fast. So the first the first one, I did it in two weeks, and then the second one, I could only make it as far as Burgos. But, yes. The answer is yes. I'm very hooked. Hooked. Okay. So you you stopped this this year at Burgos? Yes. And then you, are planning when to finish it...

Whenever I build up my...paid time off again, my vacation time, and the finances. So one or the other comes first, I'm gonna do it. Yeah. And and I am I I really can understand. Because for me as a European, I just, when I was living in Germany, I just go in my car, drive two days, and I can start. But for you guys, it's a little bit more difficult. And also, there's people...from New Zealand and Australia, they have even more of financial, hurdle to take. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. It's a little...So what I'm very curious about because this Podcast is not about your blisters and your backpack and the nice scenery and all that kind of stuff. It is the Inner Camino Podcast. Mhmm. And, I'm very interested in the things which you experienced or heard from other people, like what we call...yeah, the Camino provides...Mhmm. And magical moments,

all the things I, will mention I'm mentioning now. I experienced them multiple times myself. So this is really awesome. So synchronicity, Camino provides also, which is very interesting, the Camino provides what you need, not what you want. That happens again and again. And, I had insights revelations. I left stuff behind. I got pissed off on somebody in the past, and then and afterwards, not anymore. And then I get angry about myself, and afterwards, not anymore. All that kind of stuff. So these are the stories, which is, yeah, for the Inner Camino Podcast. Mhmm. So is there one or two or three, yeah, things you you like to share with your fellow pilgrims...Yeah. I think that when you when you talk about...the Camino providing, I I...was considering a story, and it's it's it's kind of a parable in itself. It's an old one. But, like, you know, when I when I was walking in, I was struggling with,

the first one. I was struggling with, you know, a lot of heartbreak for a multitude of reasons, but it was cherry on the top, you know, breakup, the stuff like that. It was just about all I I could have. And, I I was thinking about, you know, how am I gonna heal from this? How am I gonna heal from this? Stuff I kept praying, you know, my prayers about, you know, I wanna I wanna get over this. I wanna get past it. Right? And, it made me think of this this story about, a man who was, in a flood zone, and he was watching the TV and the newscasters are telling him everybody needs to evacuate. You need to get out of that area. the floods are coming. And he says his prayers to the lord and says, you know, please please come and rescue me. Please come save me. And in that moment,

one of his neighbors came by and starts honking on and swarming a truck, and he's like, hey, buddy. Come on. There there's flood zone. Come jump in the car with me or jump in the truck with me, and let's get out of here. And he's like, no, sir. I'm waiting for the Lord for to provide for me. I know the Lord's gonna provide for me. And so his neighbor went off. Well, the floodwaters came, and the flood got all the way up to his knees, and one of his neighbors came along in a boat. And, the neighbor's like, come on, buddy. We gotta get out of here. The floods are coming. The house is gonna get washed away. You gotta come with me and stuff. And he's like, no, sir. I I I appreciate it and everything like that, but I need to I I know the Lord's gonna provide for me. Well, the water's got all the way up to his roof, and he climbs up on his roof, and he's trying to, you know, save himself and whatnot. And a helicopter comes by and drops a rope down. And it says, come on, sir. Grab the rope. We're gonna get you out of here. And he's like, no. Nope. The Lord is gonna provide for me, and he drowns. And so he makes it all the way to heaven. And,

he asked the lord, lord, I I asked you to save me, and how come you you didn't come for me? How come you didn't save me? He's like, what are you talking about? I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter. And it that is the idea of human beings, you know, not being able to see what is provided for us when we're able to see it. We're ready when we're ready to see it at this point. And I remember just asking and praying, please, you know, help me, be able to get through this thing. You know? I wanna heal from being hurt by people. Right? And while I was walking my way the first time, I spent a lot of time in people's backyards because the the coastal route is still still very, very much cutting through people's yards. It's not its own thing. Yeah. And I'd be walking in these backyards and and seeing all these gorgeous things that's left by the Romans and and all this stuff like that, just cry my head off. And people would pass by. I remember this this couple passed by from Great Britain, and they started walking with me. And we walked for a long while. They told me about why the rocks glittered because I had never seen rocks glitter like that. They're like, it's natural mica that's here in the ground. So it was this golden route. And everything else, and I stopped walking with them. And then I got so far with them, and they're like, sit down with us. Enjoy this dinner with us. And I was so in my head and my feelings and everything, I was like, no. I really gotta get on to my hotel. And so I left them behind and never did see them yet again on the route. And then...

then the I'm I'm going on my my route another day and stuff, and I'm by myself. And I'm I'm asking, lord, please help me. You know, I need to get through this. I need to get all this heartbreak. How can I do this? And then, these two fellas, one was this very charismatic Irish fellow and, his very more calm, Austrian buddy. And I walked with them for a long time just talking about politics and these these wild stories to theirs and stuff like that. And I and I was experiencing joy and stuff like that, and I got to a point. And they asked, you know and and I was like, you know what? I I I'm gonna have to stop here, and I'm just gonna encourage you guys just to keep on going without me. And and they're like, are you sure? And I was like, yeah. And so I sent them along, and I was still by myself crying. I was like, lord, I need help getting through this. And then, finally, I I met a a gal that was in her thirties, and she walked me for a long time. And she's she's young and she's very fit, and I'm very not. And,

she walked me for a long time for multiple days, and I was like, are you sure you wanna walk me? I walk so slow. Everything she's like, I like your pace. I don't mind. And I...she told me, and I could not I couldn't my heart couldn't hear her. She wanted to be with someone, and I wanted to heal from someone. And I had that opportunity and didn't see it. And as I sat afterwards, I'm like, I had...he was giving me what I was asking for, and I couldn't see it. Right? And it does provide you. And you don't Yeah. You're ready when you're ready. And so when I came back this time, I...

recognized what I was asking for, and I was ready to see it. And I there wasn't a day I walked by myself. There I even had a day when I saw it. Did did you did you got the, did you saw that already while still walking the Portuguese route, it was, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I actually You you you really came to the inside when you start walking the Camino Francés? I I came to it when I was setting in my after I I was...I was in the church in Santiago, you know, in the back of the the the back of church where the parishioners can go if they want the quiet and actually get prayer pray and stuff. And I was I was sitting there in the church, and I'm like, you answered my prayer, and I I I didn't know you were doing it. Yeah. I couldn't see I wasn't ready to see it. Yep. So I...

felt like if I got a chance to come back, I would I would...be accepting of what it is that that...he was trying to show this time. Yeah. So I'm curious also about...because you were in Santiago after Porto, and you were sitting in a church there, and then you realized that, he said to you, hey, I sent you, the truck, the boat, and the helicopter. Yeah. What you talk about, you had that insight there in the church in Santiago, but you were not straight away on the Camino Francés that took a while. So Yes. Did it had then...what kind of effect did it had then in the time between? Because you knew then that it was there...

Was it possible for you to...to see then the help also in between before you started with the Camino Francés? Yeah. I mean, at that point, I was forty five, and that was forty five years worth of mental conditioning about how I saw myself myself in the world around me. call that, like, schema theory. Right? It's where our brains process...

our purpose in the world, I guess. and so it took me a while...to unlearn so I could relearn...what I...needed to and stuff. And so accepting help, you know, accepting...healthier relationships and things like that. And those people that wanna be there, they wanna be there. And actually opening my ears and shutting down my brain to hear to hear what they're trying to say to me. You know? I teach other people how to do it. How can I not learn my own lesson? Right? Yeah. What is what is it the Bible says, physician heal thyself. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You know, you touched something also to today. In the last couple of days, we have more talks about that, to be honest. Yeah. What I noticed that some days, most likely, it has to do with me, because then there are certain...thematics which is being talked about a lot when,

the pilgrims come here. And you said, forty five years of conditioning. And and, many pilgrims, when they come in here in the in a Camino house, and we talk, and then, when I asked them, why do you walk to Camino? How many people don't are saying, no. That's wrong English. Many people say then, I try to find myself. Yeah. And and I came to the realization that I said...

that for me, I think that's not important...Because, actually, at this moment, as we talk with each other, I really don't know who I am. Then I know later on when I look back, then I can say, oh, I was that type of guy. That's retrospective. At the moment that I live it, I don't know it. And the the person I was in the past, I cannot change that anyway. So what is to use to find out who you are? And that's the logical brain trying to get that answer. And, and it came to me that I said, you know, it is much more interesting...

to ask the question, who do I want to become? What kind of person I want to become? Then you don't try to fix the the past, but you start creating the future. And then the next question comes...yeah, but I don't know which person I want to become. And that is related to the experience you want to live. Like, in my case, we wanted to live here, and the person I'm now to be able to do all the things I'm doing here is quite different than the person two years ago. So I grown into the person who I am now, and that was the goal two years ago, but that was not related. I want to become that person. It was related to I wanted to experience that type of life. And to be able to do that, I need to become that person. And that is such a change in your psychology because you don't try to fix anything anymore. You accept the past how it is, and it hurts sometimes damn hard. Sorry about for the word, but I'm Dutch, so we don't,

have that emotion connected to the words. So and and then you really go to the future. So yeah. That and and that you mentioned that now also. And today, we had also, yeah, discussions about that. And and, it's, yeah, I just wanted to share that one...

Absolutely. I absolutely agree. I think that...I I worked with, a lot of, adolescent boys who were struggling with first episode psychosis. K. And it is a real it's a real...it's really...altering. You have maybe fifteen, sixteen years of this information. That's all you got because you're about a fifteen, sixteen year old boy, mostly. And your whole identity, what you work so hard to become at that point, gets shaken because now you're this label. You're this identity. Now you're sick. Right? Yeah. And so...

sometimes these labels become us, and how do we shake that off? You know, when they when people talk about, you know, becoming and whatnot, they...are often held back...by what they've told their self they are, you know, because of the story that they needed to tell to survive the situations that they were in. I was talking to my my buddy yesterday about this. You know? He's wearing masks and things like that. You know? Like, actors they become, the characters that they are embodying in order to express this this larger human,

concept. Right? Whatever it might be, whether it's rage or whether it's, you know, passion or whatever it is. It's some kind of, it's an expression of of how we are two beings through this character. Right? Yep. And so we we each wear these these masks of the I am. Right? But here's the thing. The thing is...I am can always change because the very first name of god is I am. And if we recognize the god within us or whatnot, we take this new identity with us wherever we want, and we can become. You know? Yeah. We can become the new I am that we choose to be. You know? And he uses the platform of, the Camino to connect with that, which all you have to do is is set your foot on the road and you start to become you become the I am a pilgrim today. I'm a Pellegrino. Exactly. Yep. Yep. Yep. You embody whatever that might be, but the thing is is that doesn't leave you. The feeling in your body now the blisters are gonna heal. Right? You're gonna pack your backpack away. You're gonna put away all of your your sunscreen or whatever it is if you needed to to survive those things, but that that I'm still walks around with you. So as much as we carry around the bed, we can carry around as beautiful. Today, I'm on a I'm Republic. Tomorrow,

the lady that's, your therapist or whatnot. And tomorrow, who knows? Right? But we can we can marry all of those things together and create this beautiful life recognizing that the I am that we're carrying around was that original I am. I am I am the holder of God. God sits with me every time I invoke that thing. You know? So I should be careful about how I invoke his name. Otherwise, it's priceless. Alright. Yeah. That's true. That's true. And and, also, you know, when you, when you say, I want to become...

that person...then you start...with the person you who you are now. Right. And that means because many people want to change who they are now. And I always say, that's impossible because I'm not a time traveler. I cannot go back in time. It just doesn't work. And so I can try to fix myself now, but I also that's much easier, really easy actually in comparison that you say, oh, I want to live that type of life, then I need to become that person, and then you your your subconscious start moving you in that direction. Yes. And so yeah. So we I'm I'm sorry. I I'm drifting away from, the the things, but sometimes I get inspired. So, and and are there any other things you want to share which you say, oh, wow. That was really something.

Yeah. I...I kind of, felt a little uneducated when it came this time in the sense that I knew I knew of the history as far as, the peak camino and that kind of thing, but I didn't know, like, the the lore and all that kind of stuff. This time, I I went out of my way. I wanted to know the story. Right? And some of the stories, and actually, which is neat, they're they're filming. They were filming, the this I think it's Oh, the Italian movie. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, about, Paulo Coelho, which is a Brazilian writer that wrote the the pilgrimage, right, which inspired later the Alchemist and and some other times. and it was about his own story, right, of Joaquin Camino with his with his friend. And I I had a teacher teach me a long time ago about these concepts, and I didn't really understand where he got it from until I read the book on my way home because I was listening to the audio the audiobook.

and...the the, thing that they had brought up, that the book had brought up was these three different kinds of love. Right? And I I told you the the first time I came, it was because love was giving me such a hard time. You know? And, this time when I came, I I and...I I was looking for, this this very specifically, the god within, you know, and connecting with that within my own self and then connecting with other human beings in order to heal something within my own self through healing with others. Right? There's a collective...of...

of how we, as a group, can heal together by just being with one another, teaching ourselves a new way to love if the old loves were causing us pain, and it wasn't really love if it's painful. You know? And so, this this book that I that it was talking about the pilgrimage and whatnot, they talked about these three different kinds of love, which was eros, which is love between, you know, the romantic kind of love, just like the the god the Roman god arrows. and then, philia, which is the the love between friends, which, are you know, the Bible tells you that there's no greater honor than to die for it, Brian. There's a reason for it. Your friend doesn't The Bible says what? The Bible says? No. There's no greater honor than to to die for a friend, to lose your life for a friend. Yeah? Yeah. And then it's true. Your friends don't give you they don't give you the the,

physical connection of, you know, romantic love can give you. They don't give you children and that kind of thing. It's not that kind. It's just we've agreed to journey together, and we look out for one another for no other reason than to lay down your life for a friend. No greater honor. Right? If you're gonna ask any soldier, they would probably agree. Yeah. and then, the final one is the, agape, which are agape, which is that unconditional love. And it takes the buildup of the other two in order to get that. Eros is not easy by no means. You have to learn a multitude of lessons because other people have learned their lessons about love. And some for some people, love is pain and associated with it, and then they project it out onto the next person that tries to love them, and then it just keeps...

keeps, you know, washing a white shirt in muddy water. It spins and spins and never comes out plain. Right? It doesn't change water. Right...And so the the first love is really hard to to...be able to process, and then comes along. And it...teaches you this person doesn't want anything from me other than my company. And it and it helps to guide you to the path of Agape. Right? And I I felt very much this time I was walking with Philia every time I allowed myself to spend a day walking and learning stories from...these beautiful people that I that I met along the way. You know? And it was healing something in me that I I knew still needed healing. I needed that belief that I was somebody that they want to walk with too. It was hard to hear. You know? Like, I was okay with being like, go ahead. Go without me and everything like that. And then being like, no. I'll wait. I don't mind your pace. It it says right? And it it leads us to that unconditional love that agapè agapè offers and stuff. And it takes it takes a little bit of brokenness, a little bit of healing, and a little bit of...

changing self, changing that that I am. You recognize you see the god and other people. Be the other people. You're them too. You know? What would you tell your friend that they were going through that? Would you tell them to, you know, suck it up and get over it? No. You'd be there and mom cry. Allow yourself to look that person in the mirror that you're they're you're walking with every single day, that you're journeying with every single day, that same...the same friendship. If you give it away, save some for yourself. That way you can get to out of pain, get to that unconditional love even for yourself. You know? So it was this one, the theilia that I was that I was looking for and about. It's beautiful. Yeah...

Is that something that you noticed as well? Because I I think I remember you saying that there was times you're The thing the thing is, the unconditional love...You know, I I when we met each other here, I don't know if we talked about it, but...in in, around two thousand, I had a really big crisis in my life, and, I had my first divorce, and, it was a lot of trouble. And then a dear friend of me, she came with a book from of, a conversation with God from Neil Donald Walsh. Yes. And I didn't want to read it, because I thought, yeah, that's a guy. He claims to talk with God, and God is to church, and I have some difficult experiences with the church. So I didn't read it. And a couple of months later, somebody else offered the same book, and they don't know each other. So I thought I did the same. Thank you very much, and I didn't read it. And again, a couple of months later, a third person, they don't know each other at all. It came with the same book. And then I thought, okay.

I it's it was like your story, you know, with the boat, the truck and the boat in the helicopter. So I thought, I I think I need to read it now. So Yeah. To be honest, I was nauseous in my stomach...when I started reading. There was so much resistance. You cannot believe it. And then something happened. It was like coming home. And everything and everything started to make sense. And the reason why I tell this, because the whole book is about unconditional love...

Oh, wow. The whole book. And and he explains it in such a profound way. And actually, it has nothing to do with religion. It has nothing to do with God. It is all to do with...how do you move to a state of, non judgment. And when you are in a state of non judgment, the other person perceives that as unconditional love. And it was really, a tough journey. It took me five years. I read the book for five years in English audio, German audio. I was living in Germany at that time in my own language, Dutch. And I was, hearing it over and over again, and I had so much things. And I want to just want to share one event there. There was one day, I was a project manager, IT project manager, and it was a very small project I was running, which is two people. It was just a small side thing. And I just...

didn't get to work because the expert we were having in a team, that guy was behaving like a spoiled prince, and he did what he wanted and nothing for the project. And I pulled my hair out. I had some hair at that time. And, yeah. So oh, that's why it left. It wasn't that time that that I lost it. Anyway...Right. I had a I made I at a certain point, I I did all the management tricks I could, and nothing worked. So in the car in the evening, home, I took my audio, iPad or iPod. So I did the tracks, you know, like tarot cards...

And I took one track, and then Neil was complaining about somebody. Yeah. And, and I had the same because and the next day, I had a meeting with that boy, ten o'clock in the morning next day. And then he got the answer, the question, what will love do now...Okay. Yeah. So and that hit hit me like...

an arrow, a rock. So I stopped the audio, and I was pounding with it the whole evening. I hardly slept the whole night because I really could not wrap my mind around it. Should I kiss him? Should I hug him? Should I ask for a raise? What should I do? How? So the next day at ten o'clock, we had the meeting, and I was sitting there totally in panic because I still didn't had the answer on that question. And I was sitting there, and then in me, there was something like, it is okay. I love you anyway. Aw. It's really deep. Yeah. And and and and it was such an embracement of who he was. And he'd I didn't say anything. It was in me, these words. And he picked it up, and it changed like a leaf on the tree. And we didn't talk. Actually, we went for a cappuccino, coffee, and it went on. And then a couple of weeks later, he started to behave like a spoiled prince again. So then I thought, now I know how it works. So I was acting that, and it was not really there and didn't work. It took me really a couple of days to go back to that space of non judgment and that total embracement of that person, and poof, it went again. And there, I had the first proof for me...

that...when you move to the state of non judgment...Yeah. Then the other person perceives it as, unconditional love. And there is a such a deep connection. And also, if you walk the camino, and you also we talked about that belief also that you connect so very deep with the pilgrims. Yes. Which we don't do in daily life. And the reason is because we don't have expectations, we don't have...judgments, we just see the person and we connect. Bang. And when we'd walk for a half day together and we lose them, it hurts like if you lose a firm family member. It is really painful. Yeah. And I I heard, I held heard pilgrims talk about that too, you know, that, like, it doesn't feel you get so...used to you you get so very connected, and it it takes us a while to really open up, to be honest. Because we have all these guards. We we wear masks for certain people and stuff like that based on a ton of reasons. Right?

and and then you find somebody you feel like there's a a me too move and, you know, a moment. Right? Like, they talk about loving...they they talk about loving this obscure rock band that's from Germany, and you're like, I know that is. Oh my gosh. And then you are walking. It doesn't matter how long you're walking. You're walking kilometers and kilometers, and you can't feel any of the pain because you're so jacked that somebody somebody gets it. They totally get the you know, that they that this band is so amazing. Right? And Yeah. And then they are like, I I'm gonna have to take a rest day, and you can't because you've got a destination you definitely have to get to. And then when you leave, it's like...you can almost hear the fibers of the heart just separating. Yeah. It so painful. And it it I know with, some of the younger ones that I was walking with, it looks like it just doesn't feel natural, and it's like but that's it it's a short version of how life kind of is. And the thing is is is, you know, I know in Buddhism, they talk about this this, you know, pain is this, you know, all of our suffering comes from attachment and whatnot.

and it's true. Rather than the attachment, we...often forget about the beauty of being able to...be free for just once for a six six hour walk with a stranger? Are we gonna be...that thing that we really love? That that band that was really great. You know? That that that bit of poetry that that you never get to talk about to anybody, that little bit of, you know, spirituality that none of your family your family members cooked on. They wanna hear it and stuff like that. And for a little bit, you get to be the most you that you ever can be. Right? Yep. and so that...unconditional...love, it it's sort of like if you've if you've ever worked out, and I just started to, so I'm no athlete. But, like, the reason why you start to build up, like, a bicep or something like that is because there's this continually continuing ripping and healing, ripping and healing, and stuff like that until it finally forms this callus, and then you you look like, you know, you're jacked. But,

and that's that's the thing with with creating these these relationships along the way and stuff like that. It's like you can't see it until you are able to step back from it's like, oh, that was really special. I got to really be...I got to really be me. You know? And on the way of looking for yourself, you've you've found you by having a conversation about an obscure band over in Germany. Right? Yeah. And it Yeah. It's it's really gorgeous that that unconditional love, and...I think...

I think you you learn it along the way as you're connecting, but allowing yourself to see it within the self first, and stuff like that. That unconditional space for yourself for forgiving the person that...did those things, allowing for that younger person to...grieve because they certainly didn't get time to do so in that moment. Right? And so...you are basically creating a a...walking love letter...to your past self so that they can grieve. A walking love letter, thank you for for your suffering so that I could be here. And now I get to be with this person who also has suffered, has also found this great rock band, and now we get to be together. I get to finally be my fullest self. And then you talk about that forward, momentum. Right? That becoming and stuff. And in that moment...the person you will become is proud of you because you took the moment to slow down and talk to some grando about a random person about an obscure rock manager. Yeah. Yeah. So and then...

so, can you then say now...that...you start loving yourself more as well or even move to unconditional love towards yourself...I...yeah. And it's it's taken me, of course, and it had to take...quite it had to take decades. Right? It took these forty well, now I'm forty seven since I I walked the first time in forty five. It took those two years to really start...seeing my own value once I...once I...recognized that and started to...have that unconditional love for myself. Everything that...I have right now is because there's a version of me that just suffered to get it. You know? There's a version of me that had to break and be rebroken over and over and over again in order to for me to be sent here and stuff. You know? So I can be resentful of who that was. I can be angry at all the mistakes she made or whatnot, or I can love her for the sacrifices she had to go through so that I could be who I am right now. And that way, the lady that I'm gonna be is proud...

of what I'm doing right now. You know? And maybe she will look back and thank thank me for the choices I'm making now. You know? Did did you read the book, the little soul in the sun? No. I did not. I will. Do you reckon? That's a child book...also written by Neil...

passed through. And it's a very tiny book. And, it is...it is like the soul is in heaven...and all a lot of souls there, but it it is only light and love. So it doesn't know what darkness and hate is, and he wants to experience that. And then god comes to him and said, you can...you can go to Earth...and experience that. Oh, yes, said a little soul. Yes. Yes. I want that. And then, a lot of souls are hurrying, listening to the talk, and they gather around these two. And one of them moves forward and says, I can be your guide in darkness...

out there. So that that soul sacrifices itself to become darkness. So the other one can experience, that what is light, because you don't know what is light when you don't have seen the dark. You don't know what is hot when you never have felt the cold and the other way around. Yeah. So and, and then the little sauce oh, thank you. Thank you. And the other one says, please remember that when we are in a darker space...

because then it is really dark. And and that's also you know, I had a very troublesome relation with my mother...for many, many years, and, it turned out to be that she was an...alcoholic, Corinne, and I didn't know. And, so I was around forty five, and I was doing applied psychology and all kind of stuff and getting to know myself, which I just mentioned that's, yeah, a never ending road. Anyway and then I started because, also, I was reading and moving towards that...nonjudgment. Mhmm. And then I got the impulse to write her a letter and thank her for being the dark soul. Oh, wow. Yes. And and I I really made an effort. There was no AI at that time. So I really made an effort to write it in a way that all the judgments...who were hidden in words and the the structure of a sentence, which still were they're judgmental. I I was reading it over and over and over again till I could not find any hidden,

judgment anymore. And it was really like, okay. I really thank you from my heart...Mhmm. That you were the person who you were so I could become the person I've become. And the sacrifices you made were insane. Yeah. So I gave her the letter, and she, she was in a in a in an in an old folks home and had, Kosovkov. So she was totally...not mentally there anymore. And I I gave her the letter, and she held a letter, the last years of her life with her, like the biggest present...ever. You know? And it is, yeah, it is so difficult to go to that space of, nonjudgment. Certainly. Yeah. And like what you said, she when you are broken, then you you know what is not being broken. Right. Otherwise, you don't know. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah...

Yeah. So...that that was on the the second time that you were working, that you were busy with that. Yes. And now you're home. Uh-huh. What what do you feel...is this something what you feel or other people mentioned that...

is this something which has changed or not, or is this still in the making or not at all? What what what what is it how is it now? I honestly, it's still...it's still...baking. and I I...you know, as I I wanna teach other people, I I make the point, and it's kind of joke on myself or what, like, I don't wanna be the smartest person in the room, and I do not wanna know everything at forty seven years old. I intend to live to be in my hundreds. I don't wanna be bored. So I think that there's always space to keep on growing and learning things. But in particular, what I'm noticing about myself is, like, you know, I I I...relationships...still sort of trigger me and stuff like that because I'm a person. You know? And and like I said, I have to uncondition that old conditioning...in order to allow for something new to come in. and...

so I'm I'm...practicing...you know, allowing...you know, and allowing that belief. And...I'm using evidence. This is something I tell my clients. I'm like, what evidence that do you have to back up these thoughts that you have about yourself? And what are the the close what are the arguments against it? You know? You sound you've told me you've got these arguments that prove that this is not always true. It's not every time. It's not always. Right? And so I I have to I found myself doing that...

with my my own self. it's like...the idea of wanting to to fit in and that kind of thing like that, because I think that there's a certain seems seems like there's a certain personality type that that finds themselves on the Camino's. More I feel like a lot of people are very introspective, and they've got their own reasons for why they're being there. There's something that's strong there. There's a lot of different places they could spend their vacation days. Right? There Spain's gorgeous. Portugal's gorgeous. Like, there's a lot of beaches they could be sitting down on rather than suffering through your blisters and trying to fight for a place to hang up your your socks. Right? but they choose this for a reason, and it's you're not always gonna...

find the the you're not gonna find your your tribe everywhere. Right? So actively seeking out the tribe and whatnot and then allowing myself to actually see them, That's something that I continue to work on and actually believing people when they give me a compliment. You know? I have developed this particular...safety mechanism using a little bit of humor in order to kind of, buffer some things and whatnot. And it and it...or a little bit of sarcasm because that's a that's also very American thing, probably a lot of people saying. But, in in it's order to not...it it keeps the shield up whether people know it or not. You know? You put a little humor in there, and you don't have to really expose the truth of yourself because there's like, oh, they were just joking, and then they really don't know you ever ever. Right? so I'm very funny. Right? And it and it's not...

it's...it makes you likable, but not knowable. Yeah. And you can be That's one of the things that, the Europeans say about Americans...How's that? Just that. Yeah. it is really fun to be with them, but when do you know them...

Yeah. Yeah. Then it's I...that's that's something that I wasn't aware that we were so we are I guess, it's something that's culturally that we're kind of unaware of because Yeah. But then but then the Americans are also quite harsh on themselves because okay. The people who walk the Camino...many of there are some, a certain percentage, they start off, as a holiday, like, William from Boston. He's in the Podcast. You know, he started off as a holiday and turned out to become a a pilgrimage. And then and the pilgrimage is self reflection. That's that's a pilgrimage. And and I I I meet so many people from America here, and, of course, they are American. Like, we I'm Dutch. Yeah. We have a certain style of talking and acting, and that's culture. Mhmm. But still, I had such nice encounters with people from America, and I really got to know them. Yeah. It was not like, okay. This is the outside where we make a joke about this and a little bit that, and we have a nice time together. We have witches, and we have fun together. Everything good. Mhmm. But also the other part is really there. And,

so the whole idea about...that you don't know them is starting to fade for me in a very high speed away...Yeah. I well, well, Danny, I think that I think considering...what I encountered with you or whatnot, I think that you gave a space so that that there was a safety, which a lot of times we feel this unsafety. We're we're gonna be picked at in some type of way. I I I have, friends that have been in the, like, the armed services and stuff like that. The way that our men interact is because usually in armed services, there's a lot of men heavy. but they they will...ease each other in the most...

you know, the most...damaging ways and stuff like that, but they're they all consider it kind of fun, so we keep this guard up all the time and stuff. And I think that when I I know when I my friends and I were, at your at your Camino House and stuff like that, like, you you allowed this space...of curiosity and and, you know, lived experience that it was easier to kinda let it now. We don't we always have to keep it up. You know? It's not because we're American. It's because of how America shapes us and stuff where we have to have this harder exterior or we the the sensitive parts of ourselves get...

rung like an orange. You know? Yeah. And all of the the good stuff just gets squeezed away till we're in nothing but the rind. You know? and it's it's really common, with us. We're we're incredibly...harsh on ourselves, but we hear a lot of harsh things about us, so we had to hide it. We had it with humor or a little bit of cynicism or, you know, like a tougher exterior, everything like that, because that's what we have been taught, but that's how to protect the Survive. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And surviving has nothing to do with living. It does not. It does not. And and, you know, you just said, also because I was, I have, here in the weeks that we are now open. This is for me in total new life. And what I started to notice that, two weeks ago or something...

there was a guy coming in. He was like an a big...bear, a navy seal type of guy with arms like this. You know? And, you know, you do you know, I introduced the Inner Camino House. And the the essence is I'd want to share our home with the pilgrims and give the pilgrims a home for a moment. That that's the essence of what we do. So I explained then, and it was that guy was standing...opposite of me, and he was bouncing his head on the low ceiling. So, I wanted to offer him a an helmet, nearly. But, and he was stand and and I said, welcome home. Mhmm. At the end of what I was saying, and he broke down in thousand pieces. He started to cry. Yeah. And and he...

then he he collected himself...and he couldn't speak anymore. It just went out. So we were sitting outside on a bench, and I was walking out, for, quarter of hours later to have a look at some pilgrims, and he was still sitting there totally in motion. Then he came back Yeah. Inside. He took my hands, and he wants to say something. He broke again, and he went out again. So he went he was there for an hour or something, and I never spoke with him because and I'm and that is not the first. That happens quite often. So my wife and me, we are like, what is going on? We don't understand. And and and, people start getting a lot of emotions, start crying, and and and, yeah. It is just...

I don't know. It it happens. And we are puzzled with it. And it's what you say. Yeah. You you keep out your guard, and that's why I tell this. So perhaps that could be the reason why people, react like that because perhaps that's for the first time in the life that they don't need to be somebody else, but just who they are. Because I have no expectations...of you when you were there, how you want to be. And if you want to present yourself in a certain way, that's fine with me. If you want to present yourself in another way, that's fine with me as well. I I it is not that I don't care, but it is your choice and not mine...

Yeah. Who you want to be when you are here. Yeah. So...man, we are living such a strange life here at this moment. You cannot...you cannot imagine. I cannot...

Yeah. I I think that...I think that when you, again, talk about that nonjudge judge...mental...part, that that unconditional love or out of pay or whatnot...I think that for people that have had...a very long time keeping centuries at that...at their gates, at their their, you know, the borders and everything like that. And when they reach finally see someone and finally get to experience that nonjudgmentalness...that that unconditional...acceptance, that unconditional love, you know it. You feel it because it's like on any we're we're we're not too far from the the birds of the field. Right? We're not too far from the animals that we used. Right? We still have our instinct. We still get those feelings and stuff. And so when we're set across from or we're in the presence of a human being...

that isn't judging us for who we are, isn't judging us for breaking down, for for just being in our humanness and imperfect...and accepting us anyways, you feel it. So imagine the things that you and your your wife are experiencing is because of the things that you guys are already putting out there. You're just you're accepting people for who they are, not who you expect them to be because they're from America or they're from Germany or they're they're, you know, from Australia or Taiwan. Right? And that says something. You know? and I think that the thing is about...

taking this path and such, you don't have any expectations. Right? You you expect you expect to work. You expect to work hard because you are climbing mountains and dealing with outside blood. So that's that's our core. But, like, you don't expect other human beings to let you be so that you can figure out who you are. And then you never get another space like that. Right? So whatever you and your wife are not, it's not just the food that you're putting out, but the the gift of yourselves...people need it. I was I was walking with I think I might have told you this, but, like, I was...

I have one of those beautiful moments. Like, I think then people were looking for it, like, the the why moments and stuff. And when I was sitting down at a table and, I think it was Estrella, and this younger girl, asked why people had come. She told her why. and it was because she was in this this weird space of wanting to either be a lawyer or be the therapist or being a psychiatrist, and she's was conflicted in this and came here to kind of really get in touch with this and really think and and walk and beep the false stuff and make up her mind about it. And then when we started going around the table and everybody else had their why and all that kind of thing and myself too. And, this older fellow, he talked about, well, my wife is taking a tour bus, and she's gonna meet me in Santiago. And...he...he said that he was choosing to walk while she was taking him to the bus because she she hasn't housed up, and they were gonna meet there in Santiago, that kind of thing. But they wanted to know why God took their daughter. They were a older couple, and they didn't know why god had taken their their older daughter. Right? And so he was trying...

to figure that out, and he was hoping that just like we were talking about, the Camino would provide an answer. Maybe he would get his answer along the way...And what I...noticed was, you know, we were crying, but here we are...human beings, strangers to one another. Right? And we're connecting. There's no judgment about seeing this man. He was a very tough dude, big dude too, and he was able to give us the gift of him. And we you learn how to let down these guards. You tell the sentries to go take a nap, and you open up your gates and allow people in. It could get a chance to to change forever. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that the response that you and your wife might be experiencing is is that. It's like you didn't you're not you're not...

presenting with your an expectation. You're ex presenting with with a home, even if it's a temporary one for an afternoon...and stuff. And a lot of people are very...psychologically and spiritually homeless. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's true. And it's also in the the song, I got the impulse to write that song, the Inner Camino house song. People say, is that the Camino song? No. No. That's...something I I wrote the lyrics. And...to be honest, just last week or so, I started to, I started to see that there are four stages describing the, the Camino. Yeah. I was not aware of myself. But, anyway, in the in the after that you walked and you arrived and then you talk with each other and then you connect on a deeper level. And in the song, it is laughter in three languages, all meaning the same. I see you. I'm with you. can rest your name. And that and that makes I I get emotional again when I say these sentences because...

it is so that you really see, you know, also the stamp, I see me from Avatar, I see you. It is all about death. Yeah. And and and, yeah. Yeah. So...how is it with your time? Because you said, you have an appointment. I do. I have to...

I have to provide a telehealth. I'm doing therapy after just giving it. I'm not receiving it. Yeah. So Yeah. But you still have enough time? I still have enough time. I probably I think I get about twenty more minutes, and then I gotta I gotta get prepared. So...I, I also, ask...

the people to join the Podcast, because I find it very important to...Mhmm. That we spread out the Camino on the world, and we do that by these type of talks, reflection, sharing moments, and that kind of stuff. So I have two questions for you, and then, then we can just manage that, before you go to the next appointment. And the the first question is...before we end, I hit the, stop recording button. Mhmm. What you really want to say to your fellow pilgrims? That's the first question that that you think is really important to know. And the second question is...

what would you say...to your fellow pilgrims...to motivate them to become an active participant of the Podcast, not only listening, but like you, to be interviewed and share the story. So there are two questions. Perhaps they are intervened. I don't know. Okay. I would...

what I would recommend is even though this is very the experience is very jarring. It takes you out of all of your comfort zones and and things like that because every day you're outside and exposed, and and you think you could go when you stay in these albergues and you're exposed again and whatnot, I would...encourage you...to take little pieces of it with you. Right? Like, you're taking the the like, a loaf of bread, just one little bit at a time, and try it. Be become become the the pilgrim, whatnot, even at your home. You know? We we have all of these identities that we carry around. Right? We are somebody's sister. We're someone's, you know, father. We're someone's, you know, worker or whatever, and, we become these things, and we take on those roles and identity. What if you stayed Pilgrim despite leaving Pilgrim, the physical activity. Right? You take it with you, and it could be in little, little things. Maybe, you know, maybe it is actually...

talking to your neighbor. If you never talked to him before, maybe just talk to him one time about a little thing or something like this. You know? Or maybe it is, like, even though you wouldn't ignore somebody, maybe dropping something on the ground and just keep on walking. You're not particularly cool person. Maybe you're busy, but maybe slowing down...and just...being being connected for just even a minute. Even a minute. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Taking those little little bread crumbs with you so that you...are you your I am becomes I am a pilgrim no matter where I'm at. Yeah. And Yeah. They continue to be the pilgrim despite leaving the pilgrimage. Yeah. You know? And that's and that's one of the things in in the western world. Mhmm. And I, so Spain is also the western world, but different. And and, and I I talk about the English speaking western world and the north part and the mid part of Europe. Yeah. We lost that. And and I can say here, we moved here to Viloria de Rioja, and the the villages here, they not only welcomed us with open arms, but with open hearts. And this is such an insane experience. They really enclose you, and they accept us also how we are. And I don't speak a word Spanish yet. Yeah. And I hope I will speak some Spanish in a year or so. But and they really accept the whole thing, you know, and and we lost that. And there's so much...

homesickness where where people in the whole world, in the western world, to be home and be a part of a tribe again. Because you cannot be part of a tribe if you're living alone in a box, which we call the house. Yeah. It's true. It it's not possible. And and what could you say to the pilgrims to motivate them to become an active participant...

I think keep on talking about it. That's the thing. We condition ourselves through the words we use. And we condition ourselves through all of the negative things we say to ourselves constantly. We become those things too. And I think that in order to...keep that...keep that part of yourself alive, talk about it. That's the thing. You talk about it, you reinforce it, and your brain structure literally starts to change, and you continue to be the pilgrim...and stuff. And it won't just stop, you know, if you can't make it back to Europe and whatnot, you can do it anywhere you're at and things, but you're talking about your experiences. And it's really wonderful to be able to have that shared experience, which is beautiful. It perpetuates it. And you continue with perpetuating the vibe of it, which is Yeah. Is the...

Yeah. You know? And, also, you know, you are touching another part because I didn't realize it when I, had the idea to start this Podcast. It was all about sharing and take the Camino a little bit more home. And when I was writing the introduction, script, which I never do, but I did for that one, I was writing the script. And, and then I realized, oh, man. If you listen every day to self reflection of somebody, you are training your brain in self reflection, and you start to understand the why. And the judgment starts failing fading away. You still can judge the how, how people do something that I still do. But I really understand the why of people, and I that means that I feel connected with them, and the judgment goes away, and then you move automatically in the space of unconditional love, which is not naive. You know? I'm not naive. Yeah. I still take care of my...

situation. Yeah. And I protect myself, so I'm not stupid and naive. But I really can see because of the self reflection, you start, you start to understand the why, and then judgment fades away about the why, and you connect. And then I realized by, like, what you say, you reinforce that by talking about it, but also by listening about it. And we cannot listen to the stories if we have only ten people talk, and then then it needs to become a Danny Podcast for the pilgrims, and I don't want to do that. And this is a Podcast for pilgrims by pilgrims. So Yeah. I really hope that people are listening now that they say, okay. I go,

step over my fear. My that's and also the idea that I don't have any interest in stories because there's a lot of BS. Everybody has interest in stories, and only and it's all about self reflection. So That's all. Thank you very much. Is there something really a last word you want to say...

Yeah. I I I really do. I think that, a, I really do appreciate what you what you and your wife were doing. It was it was a gorgeous experience to actually be at at your house. It was it was you could you could feel it. Like, I think places carry energy, and I know you're right across the street from where Santo Domingo was born. And I think you carry on that that that that energy, which we dearly need. You know? Our lives were not meant to just...work and justify like what you said. We were we're meant to come here and experience. And I think that this continuing this this experience through connecting with each other and being like, do you remember do you remember that that one great little cafe? Do you remember seeing that pretty little place with the the flowers and stuff? And then you continue the story on, and it...continues to change your mind...about who you are and where you are in the world. I think it's beautiful, continuous stories. Keep telling them that. Thank you. Yeah. And and then you become the light, you know, behind the door, and you are sitting in a dark room, and you see the light shining below the door. Every person can become that. And then the other person sitting in a dark room gets curious about that slimmering slit of light under the door, and they open the door, and they see you, know, see you and connect with you, and they become also that small light,

the door for somebody else. So, actually, people think we cannot have an influence. All that is also a lot of BS, really. We can have a big impact, but we need to do something. And not only think about, oh, yeah, I could do something that doesn't work. You need to move. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, Steph. I really thank you a lot. This was a very...beautiful talk. I enjoyed a lot. I get a lot of goosebumps moments, and also, sometimes I got a little bit emotional. And, but that's all in the game. So...

I really thank you a lot. And, yeah, thank you very much. Thank you, Danny. I appreciate you.

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And non-judgment is experienced as unconditional love.

That is how REAL change begins.

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