Episode 13 - Frank from Pembrokeshire - The Camino Didn’t Change His Life. It Became Part of him.

Danny

Hello. Welcome to, yet again a new episode for the Inner Camino podcast, a self reflection podcast for pilgrims by pilgrims. I'm a pilgrim, and I'm sitting here with, Frank Roscoe. I hope I pronounce your name correct, Frank.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah. He's also a pilgrim so it is indeed for pilgrims by pilgrims Frank I'm really excited to have you in the podcast and I'm also very curious about the story you want to tell. We already had a talk before, it is always for me very exciting. and interesting to hear what you. encountered. It is all about the Inner Camino, it's not about the backpacks, your blisters, your planning and your gear, it is all about what happens with you inside and what kind of lessons perhaps you draw from it and also I find it also very interesting what kind of effect does it have at your current life.

Danny

So I but I don't want to prescribe what you want to tell, but this is something where I was thinking about. So Frank, please can you introduce yourself to the listeners. where you are, where you're from, do you have kids? So a brief introduction. Yeah. Hi. nice to speak to you again.

Danny

Yeah.

Frank

My name is Frank. I'm I'm sixty four, retired. I've been married for forty years. Got four grown up children. I'm English, but I now live in Wales in, West Wales, Pembrokeshire. and I'm currently preparing to walk, my fifth Camino, which will be September, October from Saint Jean Pied de Port to, Leon is the aim at the moment, but that may change depending on how things go.

Danny

I really like that because then you will, it will be possible for you to visit me in the Inner Camino House in Viloria de Rioja. yeah. I've got that on the itinerary, don't we? Oh, yeah. Oh, I really looking forward to you to that to see you in real life, really. So, I so you walked in for the fifth time, so you're are addicted also like me on the?

Danny

Yeah. I mean, as I think I said in when I contacted you initially, is it an unhealthy obsession?

Frank

I've moved away from that now. I don't think it is. I think, well, if I tell you. how I got there, I did see the film The Way many years ago. I'm not saying it inspired me because I'm not even sure I knew it was a real thing.

Frank

I think it was just a good film that I watched. So I didn't come away from that thinking, oh, I've got to walk the Camino. But really, what happened was my sister did the, the last hundred kilometers from Saria, and then my daughter did a couple of short Caminos. and she suggested that we did a sort of family Camino. So in twenty twenty three, my wife, myself, my daughter and her partner, we did the English way from Farol in Northern Spain down to Santiago, which obviously is just is over the hundred kilometers. And that really. caught me, and that's what I think. got me started.

Danny

So after that, my wife and I, we did the Portuguese from So may I may I ask what was it? What caught you?

Frank

I think it was just the whole this idea of of a challenge. of being together in a in a small group, and, meeting other people, and also the things you see along the way, the churches you visit, and, obviously, to have I think it's very important to have a goal and a destination, and Santiago's a fantastic destination because it is impressive. Certainly gave that feeling of of achievement. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and. and we wanted to do more.

Frank

So as I say, we did the coastal way from Porto with my wife the year after with the spiritual variant. Mhmm. Then we went. I've had a lot of problems with, my knees, so I'm a bit of a it's a bit difficult for me to walk at times, but we did manage the. the central. Camino, port the Portuguese central from Porto.

Frank

And then. last time, I actually went on my own, from Lisbon to Porto. And I think that is one of the interesting things about the Camino is. you can do it as in a group, a family group, and that's fantastic. You can do it as a couple, which, you know, is a good experience. And I think it's it's important for as a couple to spend time together and have challenges together. but then I wasn't really prepared for how different it would be on my own. Yeah.

Frank

And, I think I got a lot more out of it on my own. Yeah.

Danny

So, I have to be honest also the same experience because the first time I walked with my youngest son, he was then thirteen, which was an insane beautiful experience. Then I married on the Camino and walked this honeymoon together with my wife, the Camino in twenty fourteen, which was beautiful to do and an insane experience. Twenty eighteen, I walked with my daughter. She was then fifteen. Also, great experience, great meetings.

Danny

Camino provide moments, everything. Last year, I walked alone. It was so different, so different. So I really can. feel with you what you say. But what was for you then different?

Danny

What what was the difference?

Frank

I think, I met a lot more people. And. I think although we can say we've always met people along the way, I think on your own, it's more of a bond because I think you, know, you need that companionship. I sort of didn't expect to. form any sort of close bond with anybody, but there were certainly were. individuals that I met, and, you know, they continued to meet along the way. But also the time I spent on my own because, you know, there were times that I, you know, I had, you know, hours and hours on my own, and that's something I've not really done for a long time.

Frank

And I think, it's it's interesting. You don't know when you meet someone if they're gonna be significant or not. Yeah. You know, you meet someone for, you know, a couple of minutes, and you think, I'll never see them again. Never see them again.

Frank

Yeah. And yet, in actual fact, you end up spending days with them, meeting them frequently. And then, you know, when you have to split up because they're doing different stages or you will have different goals, it's quite a wrench, really, and you suddenly, oh, I'm back on my own again. Yeah. Yeah.

Frank

That surprised me because, you know, I mean, I think. you talk about synchronicity, these sort of moments where, you know, something happens and it all comes together. And the some people call it the Camino provides or whatever. I just think it's interesting that you just don't know which moments are gonna be significant. along the way. Yeah. The people that you meet, who, you know, who are the who are going to be. again, people call it the Camino family.

Frank

I would just say, you know, who are the people that you're going to see regularly and form a bond with? Yeah. But you inevitably. Yeah. and that's what I found different on my own was there was a lot more of that. Yeah.

Frank

Because I think you're in a in a group of four, you're you're a little capsule, you're in, you know Yes. You're both contained. And if you're in a couple, you're also, you're also, I think, less likely to you do interact. We do interact with other people, but it's it's different. Yeah.

Frank

Yeah. I feel it. I'm totally with you. I experienced exactly the same. And for me also, in all four the Caminos, so with my kids and my wife and alone. you meet people and like you said you actually don't know if you will see them ever again.

Frank

And then suddenly you start to build a bond because you meet each other again, and then you think, oh, I never see them, and you see them again. And it happens a couple of times. And then suddenly you they indeed don't see them again. Yeah. Because but that's then unexpected.

Frank

And for me, sometimes it was really painful, like losing a family member or something.

Danny

That was really that's why I really can understand what people say the Camino family because how how was that for you? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, it was, a wrench when when we had to separate. But, I mean, I.

Danny

I sort of became part of two different groups, and also walked, I think, for two or three days with one individual. and we didn't plan to walk together. It just we set off together, and we just never partied for three days. It was just really weird. Yeah. You know, we got on well.

Danny

And I think, you know, sometimes you think, well, I'm you know, is this a hike or is it you know, what's the difference in it just being a walk and or a hike? you know, I know that if I mean, if I wanted to go for a hike or a walk, I could go lots of different places that are much easier. Yeah. and I wouldn't be walking ten, fifteen, twenty kilometers a day for twenty days. Yeah. And it wouldn't be the same the same challenge.

Frank

But I think on on the Camino, you want the people you meet, there is this common bond. a bit like I I'm ex military, and I think it's almost a bit like that where, you know, in the military, you can go anywhere and you've got the uniform on and you're automatically part of the military family, whether you know. other people or not. and I think the same on the Camino. You just you just become part of that group, and you're accepted. And, you know, there's no no questions asked, and it's, it's something that just is there. I think, one of the things that interested me was when I got to Porto at the end of my solo Camino, I had a few hours to kill. And, so I was hanging around the cathedral because I knew there'd be pilgrims there, and you can just chat to them.

Frank

And, you know, there were a young guy who had just finished his Camino and asked me to write in his journal. and there were other people who were carrying on to Santiago, and that was great. And then I went to get my stamp at the cathedral office, and there was quite a long queue. but I joined the back of the queue, and I was surrounded by tourists. And it just didn't feel right. You know? These people were not my people.

Frank

I wasn't part of them. so I left the queue, and I waited till there was a group of pilgrims at the back, and joined them. But interestingly enough, they were the people who were starting their Camino. And you could tell the difference. in the way. you interacted with them because there was no immediate bond of over on the Camino. They were just starting. So they were sort of, you know, who's this strange guy who's talking to me as if he's my best friend, you know?

Frank

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Frank

Yeah. Because you started Lisbon and it's in Porto, and they start in Porto going to Santiago. Yes. Yes. So they hadn't got this.

Frank

I I don't know. It was a definite feeling that they hadn't got into the pilgrim mode. Yeah. you know, which I thought was. it was quite interesting Yeah. That, you know, the difference in people at the start and the end of the Camino. Yeah.

Frank

Yeah. I mean, it's not yeah. I don't I don't know why it's got a pull. It's just. I'm I'm I was thinking it's not changed my life, I don't think, but it has become part of my life.

Frank

Yeah. and I think the own I think. the, you know, it's not a one obviously, not a one off for me. And I think for some people, it is. It's it's a bucket list. It's a tick in a box. It's a challenge.

Frank

It's a hike or whatever. But I think there are a lot of people on the Camino for whom it's, you know, it's just one of many rather than a one off. Yeah. And I don't know if you listen to the episodes, but there is a, very early episode, I believe, number four or something. It's William from Boston.

Frank

And he really went on as a retirement gift for himself. as a holiday walking the Camino and then we met each other and we ended up in a mass with an, monastery with nuns and we were both crying like babies. And the whole the whole Camino changed there for him from an holiday type of thing to something else. And, and I've seen happening that quite a lot, to be honest, but also some people who are so focused on the bucket list and having the kilometers per day and and people also have so pilgrims have judgments about that, that they are still rushing and, not actually. moving into the space of pilgrim, but more in the space of achievement. And pilgrims tend to have a judgment on that. And I always say, you know, everybody walks his own Camino.

Frank

And if they come back one day, it could be that they walk a totally different Camino, which fits better with. what the other pilgrims say a Camino should be.

Danny

But at the moment that they're just rushing it and doing thirty, thirty five kilometers per day and all that kind of stuff and I see them all not so much here in the Inner Camino House to be honest, sometimes. but I also noticed I heard from other pilgrims that they say, yeah, the first time I was just rushing and I do my targets, you know, it is not so easy to get that out of your system straight away. I think, I mean, I think certainly, you know. our first Camino was all organized for us by our daughter. then I booked everything on the second one, then we got down to booking it day by day. And, obviously, on the last one, I didn't book anything ahead, really. And. I mean, apart from I think it's important to have a destination.

Danny

You've got to have a goal. some things and I want it to be something significant. So Santiago's good. Porto's good. I'm aiming for Leon this time, but it might be Burgos. I don't know. but I think you want to have that sense of achievement.

Danny

And I do think you do want to push yourself. so, I mean, I would have a sort of this time, I'm gonna have a, you know, an itinerary that I'm not gonna necessarily stick to rigidly. but something that will enable me to feel that sense of achievement and to push a bit as well. Okay. So, that's really interesting what you say now because . I with all the four Caminos I walked, I never had a goal. and I also didn't want to push me. So and the only thing I did in the first Camino I start sharing sharing and became a habit I still do it because of that.

Danny

I start sharing my walking because I knew that there was a big risk I would break off because I was not a hiker and didn't walk so much. So I used this stick. to continue. because then I needed to say on public, hey, guys, I need to stop because of whatever. So, but I didn't have that. So why is that for you so important?

Frank

I think because my mobility has decreased over the last five years or so, particularly knees. I've got I've had knee replacements, and I've got a drop foot on the left. and I can see that. if if things continue, I'm not gonna be able to do five, ten kilometers a day in a in five, ten years well, five years' time. I don't know. So I just feel that I want to do as much as I can while I can, in a way sort. of defying or not accepting that I am more limited. And I know that's not the way I should approach it, but that's the way for me.

Frank

You know? Yeah. Yeah. Everybody walks his own Camino. Yeah.

Frank

So, yeah, that's really into yeah. I just noticed the difference because for me it was last year I was starting my eight hundred kilometers. I was. quite in despair actually because I just retired, didn't know what to do with my life anymore. It was more like, oh, okay. I walked the eight hundred kilometers.

Frank

I have something to do. like that. And everything changed completely everything. So, yeah. So there was a result there as well. Yeah.

Frank

Interest really interesting. Is it also because you were military that it's still a part of your habit? no. I don't I don't I don't I don't think that's the case. I think it's just purely I don't want to accept that I'm not as mobile as I used to. Yeah.

Frank

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I used to run. I can't run anymore.

Frank

And but I've always been a keen walker. Yeah. so no. I don't I don't think it's to do with the military. No. It could be.

Frank

It could be. So you're planning to do next year from Saint Jean. No. This September in in Oh, sorry. September.

Frank

Yeah. September.

Danny

So and and how many kilometers a day do you think you can walk then? I'm hoping twenty twenty five. Okay. Wow. which I, which was what I was doing from Lisbon. so, I mean, at the moment, yeah, I mean, I do walk five, maybe ten a day. but, obviously, that's without hills. Hills are another challenge that Yeah.

Danny

I don't. And do you carry your backpack or you send it, away?

Frank

Well, I'll I'll carry the I've got the backpack down to under ten kilos. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then you only the water comes in and then it goes up again. Oh, no.

Frank

That's ten with water and food. Oh, that's ten with water. Very good. Wash one, wear one, spare one. It's, you know.

Frank

Yeah. So you walked to several Caminos.

Danny

Did you experience things like magical moments, Camino provide moments, revelations, insights. things like that? Did you experience that. I'll cover religion because I know a lot of people say it's a pilgrimage. Are you doing it because it's really you know, for religious reasons?

Frank

I'm a lapsed Catholic, probably, agnostic, I would say, but certainly from a very strong Catholic upbringing and Catholic background. I mean, pilgrimage when I was younger, was my parents getting on a bus to a local shrine or possibly going, flying to Lourdes for a weekend or something like that. but oddly enough, I think on the Camino, the visiting the churches is a really big part for for me, and for the I think for the whole family because because we have this background in the church, although we've I'd say, we have lapsed from it, it's a very comfortable environment, and it evokes a lot of memories, and it always makes you think about the people who've passed away. so. although I would say I'm a lapsed Catholic and I'm an agnostic. I'll light a candle and will pray on the Camino in all the churches. Yeah. And I don't know.

Frank

It just feels right. It feels it feels like the right thing to do for me. Yeah. I think. in terms of, magical moments, I. I don't know.

Frank

I think it's it's it's all about the people you meet, I think, really. Yeah. And I know that, you've gotta be careful when you meet people because the I mean, there's a very wide, fairly wide demographic on on the Camino. Apart from, there's one thing we've all got in common. We've got time and we've got the money to do it.

Frank

And I think that, you know, you've gotta remember that, that it's not you're not gonna just meet every. subsection of society because there are some people who can't afford to go on the Camino, some people who haven't got the time to do it. Yeah. But I think you do meet a lot of people. And as long as you steer clear of politics, it, you know, it can be quite. you know, a social and. an eye opening experience. But I do think you've got to be careful.

Frank

I think I told you, when we first, spoke that, one of the people I met who I didn't know was gonna be. significant on my Camino, I was washing my feet at a at a a water fountain fairly early on in the day, and a a group of four came past with a very loud Scotsman. who sort of laughed. At not who didn't laugh at me, but he was just so, look at you and, oh, you're well you're from Wales, but you're not Welsh. And and they shot past me, and I thought, well, I'm just never gonna see them again, am I? You know? They're they're obviously going much further.

Frank

But I did see them again, and I ended up in a bar with the Scotsman who reminded me of the, James Nesbitt character in The Way in the Oh, yeah. Quite loud. And Oh, the oh yeah. The writer that he was. Yeah.

Frank

Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. Not the Dutchman, but the writer. Dutchman.

Frank

No. The writer. Very loud and very inquisitive.

Danny

Anyway, we're in a bar, and it's like, oh, he got around to, well, what do you know, what's your background? What did you do?

Frank

And I was telling him about my military career, which. is not exciting, but it can sound exciting Yeah. The way you tell it. You know, I didn't do anything fancy, but, you know, I did go places. I had eighteen years in the military. And then after that, I had eighteen years working in a hospice, which I think a lot of people are interested in because. particularly of our age group, you've got this.

Frank

A lot of people have this interest in in death and dying anyway. Yeah. so I've got a lot of experience in that. And, so I did my bit of what I've done, and then I said, okay.

Danny

So what do you do? And he said, I'm a banker. And I just. I was just it was like, what a conversation stopper. But what I said was, oh, that's boring.

Danny

And, I mean, we survived the conversation. But I didn't know I didn't know that this guy was gonna be one of the few people that I would meet on a daily basis and spend a lot of time with because although he was walking in a group faster than me, we ended up at the same stages at the end of the day. And it was a few days later when we were walking for hours together, he told me that he was he was upset by what I said, that I dismissed his his life, his career as as boring. Yeah. you know, so I think you've gotta be very careful. you know, how you, you know, how you meet people and how you treat people, and not make and there's, you know, as as a lot of people have said on on your podcast, you know, don't, you know, don't be or you said, don't be judgmental. You know, you've got to be you've got to be careful with people because, you know, you don't know.

Danny

I mean, the other thing I think you always remember the first pilgrim you meet. Yeah. When I walked out of Lisbon, I was a good hour and a half, maybe two hours on my own before I two pilgrims came marching past me really. fast. Mhmm. Big backpacks.

Danny

Tick tick tick. And it's about. never gonna see them again. Yeah. Anyway, first coffee stop. They were stopped.

Danny

So, you know, we got chatting, and I thought, oh, that's nice. You know, we've had a chat and off they went again. But in actual fact, there were another, you know, couple of people that I met frequently, in the first ten days and, you know, had meals with. And, we ended up having to park company at Melharda, which is the town where they do the suckling pig. So Okay.

Danny

Mhmm. We had a fantastic meal, said goodbye. But, you know, that was, again, people that you, know, you initially meet and you think never gonna see them, and you and you do. You meet them again. So, yeah, things like that.

Danny

I think it's all about the people. It's about the people, you meet. But then when you're on your own, I think it's about, oh gosh, what goes through your head. I think I think the interesting anyway, if you walk for eight hours or six hours on your own Yeah. Think for a good two or three hours, your brain just doesn't know how to stop.

Danny

It just goes on and on and on. On and on. Yeah. You gotta think about this. You gotta think about that.

Danny

You gotta think about this. But I think then you eventually reach a point where. you've just thought too much and you just stop thinking and you and then you get almost like in the zone or in a zone of arm, peace. I don't I don't know what it is, but it's just as if you've you've worn your brain out and your your brain's having a rest. And I think unless you spend those hours on your own. it doesn't happen. I'm hoping this is what's gonna happen on the Musetta because I'm told, you know, that's what happens. it's a bit like when I used to run.

Danny

Mhmm. Very occasionally, and I'm I mean, once or twice, you'll be in the zone where you feel you can run forever. And, you know, you're it just it's not a chore. It's not hard. It's really easy.

Danny

And I think when you walk a long distance walk, I think. you can also get in a zone where walking is easy. You just want to keep going. Your brain and your mind is in the right place. And it and it I don't know. It just gives you a a lift and it makes you feel good.

Danny

It really feel good. And it for me, it didn't last for long. You know? I'm not saying it lasted for hours, you know, maybe even fifteen, twenty minutes where you just, it's great. It's right.

Danny

And, you know, that's what you want to do. So I thought. I think it's gonna be interesting how, having had the experience of walking on my own to go back to walking with someone. Yeah. and, obviously, I want to walk with my wife. That's not a problem.

Danny

It's and I think it's really important that we you know, we do, do something together like that. But I just wonder if we can maybe. if this time, maybe we won't be. as, joined to each other at the hip, shall I say? Oh, you walk with your wife this year or together? I'll be walking with my wife. Yeah.

Danny

I mean, I did meet two sets of people who were on the Camino together, but would not walk together during the day. So they would meet up in the evening. I think the two of them were brothers and two of them were friends. But they said, no. We don't walk together.

Danny

We go on our we go our separate ways during the Yeah. To be honest, when we married, so we were freshly married, and, then you want to be together. We also we never went into. dormitories. We always booked a room. You don't want to go in a dormitory when you're just married.

Danny

So we did that, but the thing is that we have different speeds. Yeah. So it was always it was a bit difficult to walk together because then you need to walk faster and the other time you need to walk slower. So we ended after very quickly actually that we said, okay. We just walk each his own speed, rest moments, and this is the goal where we go today and, and was very free.

Danny

And it could be that we ended up, having something to drink and eat in the same place, but it was not always by design that we planned it that way. It was more like that she was stopping there and I came there and we had a chat and then we continue walking again. And, for for what I remember from that. is that it was so liberating. free, because we were together, but totally free. Yeah. I think the other thing about walking with someone. or, you know, whether it's a partner or in a in a group. two people can be walking the exact same route on the exact same day, and they'll have a totally different Experience.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah. I know coming, when I was getting to Porto, speaking to someone who walked the same route as me and hated it and said every day was horrible. And I'm like, but what about when we went through the forest? What about when we were along the river?

Danny

What about the towns we stayed in? And she adamant. No. It was a terrible, terrible, Camino. And, hopefully, it'll be better from Porto because everyone says it's better from Porto.

Danny

But to be honest, I if I had to if I was to choose to go back, I would go Lisbon to Porto, not Porto to Santiago. I yeah. Yeah. You know, I just think two people, same day, same walk, totally different experience. But that is very interesting what you say now, Frank, because. this is so. obvious that, what is happening is not of importance.

Danny

What you think about. it makes. that is of importance because. your emotions are not being, activated by what is happening. Your emotions are activated by what you think about what is happening. This is such a good example because you were both walking the same track. You find it beautiful. She had other thoughts or he had other thoughts and a completely different experience.

Danny

And that's why I find it also so important is that, I practice that a lot, I must say. so not practicing. I I was learning that a lot the last ten years. that when there were emotions about something came up. that I really want to look, as an observer to why I had the emotions. And, many times I could change my thoughts about the event happening causing certain emotions and then the emotion. snapped immediately into totally different experience. so and then you get control of your own thinking you get control of your own emotions, and for me that's the way to, that you start to create. consciously your own. life, to be honest. Doesn't make any sense to you what I say now? Yeah.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah. I think the I mean, the the other thing is the expectation.

Frank

I'm try really trying not to have any expectation on this next Camino because I think. particularly if you're a planner like I'm a planner. I'm sorry. I know. But I'm a planner. And so I like to know where I'm going and what I'm gonna see.

Frank

But I but you get into this situation where it's like, oh, gosh. You've got to stay in this Albergue, or you've got to go to that cafe, or you've got to see the chickens in the cathedral, and if you don't, you've missed out. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Frank

And I think I think this time, I'm hoping that we can be a little little less. organized. stay off stage as well, which I think is. is. different, you know. And also that does then leave you open to more spontaneous moments. Yeah. Oh, I'm I'm so not in favor of the stages. because what I see is that the start ending points of a stage are overpopulated with pilgrims. It becomes they're very commercial then in these spots. and which is fine in itself, but it's not what I search.

Frank

And, it is also for many people, the stages are just too long.

Danny

And but they feel because why do you walk and follow a stage? Because it gives you a sense of security and safety and then you know what is going happen and that everything is okay and that's why we follow the stages. But if like me I needed I discovered last year that I cannot walk days in a row twenty kilometers a day. I needed to go down to fifteen and then the stages doesn't fit anymore because they're all around twenty between twenty and thirty kilometers a day. So I went totally outside of the stages, and, it was such a different experience because you don't pass these small villages.

Danny

You stay in these small villages. And it is total it's really in different Camino once you walked in. And, yeah. So Yeah. I think I Yeah.

Danny

So I was just gonna say, I mean, I think the reason the stages are obviously are important. is. we've all. unless we're lucky like you and live on the Camino, we've got to reach our end point to get our flight home. So there is a a deadline in a way. and I know, I can, you know, I can take a bus or a train or whatever. but I'm still at the stage where I really want to do the walk. Yeah. I understand. Yeah.

Danny

But my conti I mean, my contingency would be. if I can't make it to Leon, I'll go to Burgos. I'm sure I can make it to Burgos. but, yeah, I think I think that's where the stages come in because if you have a limited time Yeah. And you've, you know, you've got to get you know, life goes on, you've gotta get your flight back, then, the stages become more important. But, I do understand what you're saying, and, I think, I think staying off a couple of times I've stayed off stage, it's made a big difference. So I had last year a big fight with myself. because I noticed that I cannot walk days in a row twenty or more.

Danny

I needed to go to fifteen down, which was a big thing. And I also noticed that I could do that five days in a row and then my body needed a rest. So I tried one day that was not enough. I discovered five days for fifteen, eighteen per day was okay and my body needed two days rest. So and then I had to fight again with myself, because I knew I needed to do two days rest, but suddenly, I had a time, constraint.

Danny

Because when I was decided last year to walk I, thought okay I do September, October I have all the time. But just before that I found an albergue which I wanted to, take over. and, somewhere mid October, suddenly, I had business appointment with the current owner. So suddenly, I had. time constraint. and I noticed that I needed to go down and not walk more than five days in a row. Oh, man. That was a fight.

Danny

That was a fight you cannot imagine. You know, from Lord of the Rings, Golum talking with themselves. I call them Golum moments. There was a lot of fight in my head. But. finally, what I did, I stayed in one in a in a place one day, which I scheduled anyway, like Burgos or whatever.

Danny

And then the next day, I took the bus, and I did then the bus for fifteen, eighteen kilometers as if I was walking. And then suddenly the whole thing changed because I still could meet my rhythm I needed but I was also taking care of my budy, my body, not my budy, but my body. Yeah. So and, and but man, that was a fight to get there, but at the moment that I was in that space, it felt so good because I listened to my what my body told me to do and not what my brain thought I still should be able to do. And, I learned also how difficult it is to take care of yourself.

Danny

I'm still fighting my body. I don't. want to accept that I can't. walk twenty I know it's wrong. I know I shouldn't do it, but I don't want to accept that I can't walk twenty, twenty five. And then when you get lost you walk thirty three you know so. Yeah exactly and that's why I'm always having the app and my charger with me.

Danny

I don't I walked so many times wrong and I say okay that I don't want to do anymore so I use, Gronze Maps or one of the apps to really track where I am. I don't want to walk an extra kilometer or two. And, you know, I just. it remind me, last year, I came into the city Sahagun. It's exactly halfway between Santiago and, Saint Jean. You can also get a special halfway Compostela there if you go to the church.

Danny

So, and I was there on the terrace and I'm we were just I was sitting there with some pilgrims I didn't know and there was a guy next to me he was in his 70s and, he was Scottish by the way and he told me that he was already resting there for three days because he had a very severe case of shin splint. So I asked him I asked him, how many kilometers a day do you walk? And he said, yeah, thirty, thirty five, thirty four, something like that. So I looked at him and I said, why why do you walk so many kilometers? He said, yeah, I'm seventy three or whatever, seventy four, and I'm not old.

Danny

I still can do this. I said, but now you have shin splin. He said, yeah, yeah, but I just rest another couple of days and I can continue walking. I said, oh, okay. Makes sense.

Danny

How many how much kilometers will you walk then. if it gets better? And he said, yeah, of course, thirty, thirty five. So. and that. talk with him. was so important for me. because that was the point where I could decide okay dude I need to go down to fifteen eighty per day because I want to take care of myself. Because I saw an external representation of the consequences. when the mind take over and it doesn't listen to the body and it was a really pivotal of experience for me. and then you see how the Camino provides. because it was an external person talking to me exactly on the point where I was struggling with that with that same issue. Yeah I think, I mean on the others end of the spectrum, I could be sat at home thinking. oh, you know, my knee's bad.

Danny

I can't do this. I can't let let's leave it till next year. and that would be. an understandable thing to do. I mean, I walked the Lisbon the Lisbon to portal.

Frank

I did six months after my knee replacement, which was probably not a good idea. Yeah. I just sat I couldn't sit at home thinking, oh, I don't think I can do it, so I won't go. I would rather sit at home going, I don't think I can do it, but I'm gonna go and try. Yeah. and I think, you know, you know, when people who who with who think of doing the Camino, I think particularly at our age. it you've got to remember that it you know?

Danny

Well, I don't wanna say life is short, but, you know, your sixties, they say, is like sniper alley, isn't it? You know? So many things can hit you in your sixties. You know? Your cough and it's lung cancer.

Danny

You're up to the low in night and it's bladder you know, it's prostate cancer. Or you've got a headache and it's a brain tumor. You know? So I think it's important that. to do these things while you can and don't delay them if, you know, possible. Oh, I totally agree with that.

Danny

I mean, obviously. you know, being retired, it's a luxury. We've got time, although, you know, obviously got commitments, but you can't say I haven't you know, people like me haven't got time to do things like this. And, fortunately, we can afford as I said before, we can afford to do it. And there are a lot of people who haven't got the time. or haven't got the money. but also, you know, there are people who could do it, but put it off for whatever reason. And I would you know, I think people, you know, do it while you can is an important mantra that I've got really is do what you can while you can because you just don't know.

Danny

And I think this is the. as I say, having worked in a hospice for eighteen years, you see a lot of. regrets. Yeah. you know, I remember a man telling me about the wonderful house he'd built and the patio he'd built and the fantastic garden and how he'd worked so hard for years and years. He'd never sat on his patio, you know, because he'd left too late. And I think, I think, you know, it it's important to slow down and to think about priorities. And I think that's one of the things the Camino does.

Danny

It gives you the time. to think, to slow down because, you know, you're away from the usual day to day routine, and all you're doing is eating, walking, and sleeping. And meeting a lot of people. So, you know And planning the amount of food you take in because then you can, calculate how much time you have to go to the toilet and how much kilometers you need to walk to be able to go to the toilet and not sitting somewhere aside the road, which I really never did and I never will do. And that kind of stupid things. You're even you're even planning your intake of food and the amount and things like that.

Danny

He said, do you recognize that. No. Yeah. I I did. I did.

Danny

And I called my wife one day and I said, hey. Do I do I need to go into a mental institution now? Because I'm really planning that stuff as well. So stupid. Yeah.

Danny

Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Of course. You you see lot you see lots of pilgrims passing through. Yeah.

Danny

I don't understand the cyclists. I don't see how. they. these people that shoot past you at thirty miles an hour. who don't have bells, and I'm hard of hearing, so they give me a hell of a shock. Yeah. Are they. experiencing the communion? Are they pilgrims, or are they just out practicing their cycling?

Frank

I mean, I know some of them are, but. I mean, you see them at Santiago in in at the cathedral arriving in the groups, you know, usually in they're usually in fours or sixes, aren't they? Yeah. But I don't understand. how. they what they get out of it.

Frank

Yeah. I think, you know, if if you want a cross section of people on the Camino, I'd love to hear. from a cyclist because they they scare the living daylights out of me. Yeah. I have the same experience because, I don't have a bad hearing, but what I, for me, it is when I'm walking, I start to go into my own world. I never have AirPods or something, I don't play music, I don't listen to books or whatever, I do that a lot in daily life to be honest.

Danny

Yeah, so when I'm cleaning here the Inner Camino House when we close I have airports in, I listen to books and podcasts and all that kind of stuff but not when I'm walking and when I'm walking I'm in a kind of I call it my Camino zombie state, yeah, and when then a cyclist suddenly says ping ping oh man I jump up ten meters in the sky. and sometimes I really get pissed off and want to put my stick between the wheels, yeah, and I really become aggressive but the thing is I never do something but I really feel that emotion and that's fine because the emotion is just there, I don't act on it and but. you know I just mentioned it also before, everybody walks their own Camino and, I've seen many people walking. for the first time for instance when they have these goals and it is an achievement. The Camino is then an achievement sometimes in bucket listing but many of them it is an achievement that they do twenty five through the day that they are there and that they carry the backpack that's an achievement. I was struggling with that I could tell you later. with it today. I had another Golum moment, but, and I also asked myself the same question while walking the other times. and for me I came to the conclusion. these people who are cycling the Camino, they starts to sense that they are missing out something. because they see the other pilgrims sitting together, and the other pilgrims have a different vibe, vibe around them. It is different.

Danny

It is like I'm a sailor, a sea sailor, and there were people in the Netherlands on the IJselmeer and the North Sea, and when we are in harbor and there were people with sailing yachts, we understood each other, but you also had the people with big yachts, motor yachts, and they don't mingle. They just don't mingle, and I see the same thing happening with cyclists and with, walk walking pilgrims, and they so they just are in their own space and they experience a very nice and beautiful experience. But there are moments where they meet the others. the walking pilgrims, and I have heard from some cyclists who not cycle anymore but walk that they start to have a sense of how is it to walk? What is the difference in experience? And then they come back on the Camino and walk again their own Camino, but a different Camino.

Danny

This is like William or Bill from Boston, he went on a holiday because he was retired, and then we were ending up in a church in a monastery with nuns, and we were both crying and sobbing like kids, and he went out like, oh, I didn't sign up for this, I didn't sign up for this, and his whole Camino changed. in a split second. So I, after. so the first Camino, I really was wondering. The second, I was wondering. The third, I was less wondering. I became more and more aware that sometimes you need to grow into the walking pilgrimage. and it takes time.

Danny

And when a person go by horse or by, yeah, by bus because I also needed to go by bus sometimes last year. Big deal. But it was okay. You know? And, so. yeah, so that's for me how I look at it, and how I feel about it.

Danny

This is, they need that type of Camino, and perhaps they will come back and search for the other experience and start walking. And the question is then. why do we think. you better can walk. Why do we think that? Do you do you have an idea? So why do you why why do we think that. we should walk?

Danny

I well, I don't see how you can interact with your fellow pilgrims if you're on a bike. I just don't don't get it. I think I think, you know, if you ask me what is the most important thing about the Camino, it's it's the people you meet along the way. Yeah. But there's also what you'd also said that the bikers are mostly in groups, minimum of two.

Danny

Yeah. So it is like when when I was walking with my kids, I was always with two. Like you also said, you still interact with the other pilgrims, but it is totally different when you walk alone. I have hundred percent the same experience. And, these the bikers, they are minimum two.

Danny

Most of them, I see groups of four. Yeah. So they are, I call them a bubble Yeah. Bubbles. Yeah.

Danny

Moving moving on the Camino. But the thing is, when I walk alone on the Camino, I'm in my own bubble moving on the Camino. And the thing is if you if you're in a bubble with four pilgrims walking together, biking together, let's say that's the purple bubble or the pink bubble, I don't know, purple bubble, and I'm walking alone and I and I'm in the green bubble and or yellow. Yellow is my favorite color. So I'm in the yellow bubble.

Danny

And then I look at the pink bubble and I think, oh, nay. I like the color yell yellow much better and the other way around. So which is good and which is not good? Because if we think we ask ourselves that question, there's a very subtle judgment in it. Yeah.

Danny

Because it should be better perhaps to walk, but. I actually, I don't know because I never biked the Camino. So, and that's why I last year, for me, it was so. clear, so deeply clear, you know, not only cognitive, but really deeply clear that really everybody walks his own Camino, and it has a meaning for that person at that time and a meaning I will never comprehend and not know. And then later, perhaps they walk and then say, oh, wow. This is a totally different experience.

Danny

I would never do the Camino on a on a bike. First, I hate biking. I'm a Dutchman. I believe I'm the only Dutch person in the world who hates biking. Yeah.

Danny

And that's most likely because I was biking too much when I was young, and I was forced to bike all over the place. Anyway. yeah. So that's how I see it. And to be honest, I started here with the Inner Camino House in Viloria de Rioja and there is a very, very, very small percentage of bikers. Very, very small percentage.

Danny

And indeed, they have a different. that sounds a little bit strange, but a different vibe. That's that's true. But I also feel the different vibes between the nationalities. And so the Spanish pilgrims have a totally different feeling. They bring in the Inner Camino House than people from Ireland or from England or from Australia, whatever.

Danny

You really feel the culture is so determined on what comes in my place and you really can feel the difference And, and of course, for me, for some people, I synchronize more with certain. cultures than with others. Yeah. I feel more homely with them, and that's then easier. and, I I had a question in my brain. I, I am. So. you said, you're a planner.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you like to plan the whole thing, and you start doing less planning during the Caminos. So what would happen with you when you don't plan.

Danny

Not at all. Just I think no. I think I think the planning is. more. is something between the Caminos that, you know, when when we've got back from one Camino, I'm immediately thinking, oh, what we're gonna do next? Yeah. And, I watch too many YouTube videos and maybe listen to too many podcasts.

Danny

I don't know. But, I think I mean, I yes. I do like I think the planning before. helps. not keep the enthusiasm, but it keeps. it keeps it going. It's not just it's not that I do you know, we walk I walk and then it's finished.

Danny

It can carry on because I'm thinking of the next one. Yeah. Yeah. Or even going back over what I've already done. Yeah.

Danny

But I do I do like to research the Camino and see what's coming up and along. But what I'm trying to get away from is as I say booking the stages. I'm not gonna we're not booking them way in advance. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah. Which we did first time because I think there's this. it's a security of knowing where you're gonna stay and Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Danny

Whereas now I'm because we've done it with more freedom, I'm more comfortable that Yeah. Yeah. Let's you know, we will see how it goes. but I do it as I say, this is going back to where I said, you know, is it an obsession, you know, that you just you I, you know, you I come back you come back from a Camino and immediately thinking of the next one. Yeah. We've got, I mean, I'm already thinking that if I make it to Leon in March next year, can I carry on from Leon?

Danny

You know, so it's already in my mind. What's gonna happen next year? and we've also penciled in, it's just gonna be we've penciled in a week of the Via Francicana. Uh-huh. With my here again, and also, an ill an English pilgrimage route in September next year. Yeah.

Danny

Okay. She's, a one week going round. staying in churches. Yep. So I think, as I say, it's. going back, it's not changed my life, but it's become certainly become a part of that. Of your life.

Danny

Yeah. But now I understand also more the what you mean with planning, because actually, last year when I decided to walk from Saint Jean, I was totally busy with planning. it is, like in Germany I lived sixteen years in Germany, by the way. in Germany, they call it Vorfreude, the fun you have before you start. Yeah. And, and you're already walking the Camino, although you're not walking the Camino. Yeah.

Danny

Okay. Yeah. And that is the longing of the Camino. And. now it becomes very interesting. for me, I don't know for you, but for me. Then I think. why do we want to go back to the Camino every time?

Danny

What what is it what pulls us back to that space? Do you have an idea. No. I can't I can't really explain it. I think I mean, obviously. you enjoy it, but it's not the enjoyment of a holiday.

Danny

It's the it's it's. the achievement. It's I don't know. It's the atmosphere, the achievement that you want to go back to. But what what atmosphere? What what is that?

Frank

I don't know. It's well, it's So what is the difference with daily life and on the Camino then, the atmosphere. I think it's simpler. I think it's it's. not an escape, but it's it's definitely. you know, living well, have you know, having an experience of a simpler way of living, getting away from the daily routine. Again, the the people you meet, you see some beautiful places, but it, you know, it's not a holiday.

Frank

I mean, if you, you know, there you know, as you know, there are some horrible stretches on horrible roads, and it can be raining all day and that is not fun. Yeah. But even though it's not fun, you get a lot out of it. Right? You get a lot out of it.

Frank

Yeah. You know, it's still it just feels good good to do. And I can't really put my finger on why. exactly what it is. Yeah. Because I I know in the meantime when people, so the first Camino for me was twenty thirteen after watching the movie The Way, by the way.

Frank

So, I'm now, planning to watch the movie The Way My Way, the Australian movie. Yeah. But, anyway, I was walking and I came back and people friends of me in Germany or Sweden where I lived. they sometimes said, yeah, I want to walk to Camino. And then I said, oh, you're sure?

Danny

And they all asked me, why? I said, if you go once, you're hooked, you go get again and again. So that was the first thing. And I also made myself a lot of thoughts, but why what is it that I want to go back? And what is it why we can connect so fast with totally strange people from different backgrounds.

Danny

The one is a CEO of a company, the other one is whatever. It doesn't matter. And you have the same fast connection and when you lose each other it hurts like hell. And I thought what is it? And I don't know if it's true.

Danny

We had this just my conclusion, but what I draw as a conclusion is that we meet each other and we don't have, expectations. and we don't don't have judgments. So if we have an expectation, then we also have a judgment, because if somebody doesn't meet the expectation I have, I judge. If they do meet the expectation, I also judge, because then I say, hey that's nice. It is a judgment. So if there is no expectation, there is no judgment.

Danny

And then you bypass suddenly all these things which polarize the world. immediately. And immediately in one go, and then suddenly people turn into caretakers for each other, loving creatures, love of beings who take care of each other without asking, giving what they have to support another person any other way around. And I came because of that idea, that conclusion, I came to another conclusion and that you can discuss about that. But I now say, when you walk to Camino, you experience. normal life. When you're back home, you experience daily life, which is totally different.

Danny

So that's for me, yeah, how I put, yeah, my conclusions to that. And, again, it's just me thinking about making that. that's my expectation. of something I really cannot explain, to be honest. I don't know. There's certainly a bond between the pilgrims. I mean, the number of times I sat down on my own and people would come up to me asking, am I alright?

Danny

Can you do it?

Frank

No. I'm just having a rest. But because I was on my own, people seem to, zero in on me specifically. I think if you were if you're in a group or a couple, then people will you know, they won't do that. But if you're on your own, people did.

Frank

I think I think maybe there. are two types of people who do the Camino. There I think there must be a large group of people who do it as a one off, a tick in a box, a bucket list, and it that's it. And I'm I'm not knocking that because I think it's it's an experience that if if people have, that's great. And I know there are people who who maybe don't, you know, restart the Camino and pack it in because it's not for them, and that's not that's okay. But then I think there's this other group of people like us who you do it once and you're hooked.

Frank

Yeah. And I now even live on the Camino. I never. guessed in my whole life that would happen. I think just going back to the over planning thing, I think the problem I'm beginning to see with that is that you research the route and you look at things and it becomes, oh, we've got to do you've got to stay at this Albergue or you know you've got to see this you've got to go to that cafe and I think that can be. almost make it disappointing because you I remember, on the first Camino we did, there was a particular cafe I wanted to go to because it had a lot of artwork. And, and I thought, oh yeah, we must go there.

Frank

We must make sure we go there. We walked straight past it. And I was really disappointed because, you know, it was somewhere I wanted to go. And then and also, I mean, we have stayed in the must stay albergues, and I'm not knocking them, you know, we've had great time. and they've been very entertaining. but I still feel that. to expect. these things beforehand. is not the way to go because it just may not happen. And it's off like you say, it's often the spontaneous and unexpected things. that are better.

Frank

Yeah. So I'm trying to get away from it. I mean, I have I, you know, I do know there are things along the way, that we're going to do in September. You are on the list. Don't worry.

Frank

You're on the list. Perhaps you just pass it and you think, oh, bollocks. Yeah. but I'm gonna try and not make it that we have to do this and we have to do that. You know?

Danny

I mean, the other thing about the planning is obviously. you do hear the stories of of, problems with with with finding a bed in certain places. And, you know, you worry, well, if I do that extra five, ten kilometer five kilometers, am I gonna get a bed for the night? And so you don't or I don't know. I'm gonna play it by ear. But, I can understand. why. planning is a good thing for some people, and it has been for me.

Danny

But I'm really gonna try and, do less planning, be more spontaneous, and, just, you know, see how it goes. But, obviously when that's easier to do when you walk in on your own. if you, you know, obviously walking as a couple, you've got to compromise. in some areas on, you know, how far you're gonna go, what sort of accommodation you're gonna accept. Yeah. Yeah. It's easy to What you what you also show in the story you tell about in the beginning, a lot of planning, detailed planning, booking everything in advance.

Danny

And then now you are more and more. trusting. And I have given that a name, because I know I'm very well aware about the experience, and I think we talk about the same, but we call this now we are well-being taken care of. So if you are. Catholic religious, you could say God is taking care of you. When you are more in a new age or spiritual scene, most likely you would say the universe is taking care of me.

Danny

And when you're more in the quantum physics. realm, then you could say the quantum field take. take care of us. And I say, I really don't know what it is, and I don't want to give it a name. So we have such a trust, and we can prove it. I can give I can tell you for hours events where I didn't do anything, the solution came at a time I didn't expect in a way what was most of the times insane and the result I could not imagine. So I can go on and on with that.

Danny

So there's so much trust in the meanwhile in me that I really can relax in not knowing. But I also grew to that point and actually what you do is that you are training your instinct to feel safe by not that it that because something is taking care of you. So in the beginning, I also was planning everything. Yeah. And I started to plan less and less and less, and that you hear a lot from other pilgrims.

Danny

And actually what we are doing, we are programming our instinct, reprogramming our instinct, securing our instinct. Hey, dude. It's fine. We will find a place to sleep. But in the beginning, it will say, no.

Danny

No. I don't believe it. But then you send them a lot of proof after so many Caminos so that your instinct cannot say anymore that doesn't work, and then you can relax and start, letting it more go. And, yeah, that's that's how I look at the whole thing with planning, And that's why I ask you the question, why do you plan? Because and actually, you say the same.

Danny

It is you feel more safe when you plan, and now you know you will be safe, so you still feel safe when you're not planning. But it takes time. Yeah. It will be. I think, it's gonna be an interesting one for me.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah. Hey. So I have two questions. left. And the first one is.

Danny

I did a post and that's why you reacted on Facebook. There were already fifty two participants on the podcast doing interviews like we do now, and I was totally flabbergasted about it. I had no clue how fast it will grow, if it will grow altogether. There are now already seventy people. So and I'm I my vision to have three hundred sixty five episodes so you can listen every day to a podcast starts to become reality perhaps.

Danny

I'm totally flabbergasted still. So you saw you saw most I believe you saw that, thing in Facebook, and then you reacted on, I thought. Yeah. So what was it. what made you made the decision to say, oh, I want to participate on the podcast.

Frank

I hate to I want to do it. something I've never done before. I'm a great believer that you try different things. Mhmm. but also I am very enthusiastic about the Camino. and. as I say and I and I was it was going through my mind at the time. as I said in my initial contact with you, is it an unhealthy obsession? Do I am I just too. obsessed with it? Because.

Frank

I've watched too many videos And I do you know, I've looked at, you know, a lot of planning. And so, you know, it sort of think. is this is, you know, is it too much. maybe I don't know. I don't know. But as I say, I think I've I've changed now already in that I'm I'm thinking it's it's not an unhealthy obsession. It's just it's just become part of my life and that I think, you know, I've got this, you know, September Camino planned and I'm sure I'll be doing, at least a couple more next year as well.

Frank

And I hope maybe for years to come. Yeah. So and and why why okay. So you said, okay. I never did this before.

Frank

I want to try it. and so that's that was the trigger to say, okay. I want to, participate. Yeah. But plus also, I mean, I listen to other people on podcasts, yours and other podcasts, and I, you know, I find them interesting most of the time and, informative.

Danny

So, you know, why not why not join in? Yeah. Exactly. If you don't join in, you never know. Yeah.

Danny

Exactly. You know what I hear here in Inner Camino House, when the pilgrims are here, I tell them about the podcast, and so many times, so many times people say, yeah, but I have nothing to tell. So many times. And I always say that's not true. I I mean, my hesitancy would be that.

Danny

I'm not particularly religious unless I'm on the coming war. And also I'm not very I wouldn't say touchy feely. You know the word touchy feely? I'm not very yeah. You know, when people I'm not one that talks about Camino family or or. you know. what's the other word?

Danny

I'm trying to think of the other word. the Camino pro oops. Sorry. Camino provides. Yeah? Yeah.

Danny

I mean, I understand the concept, but I don't see it like that. So I would say, I'm definitely a pilgrim. I'm not a walker. I know that. but I'm not the hesitancy in participating was, yeah, I thought, well, you know, listening to the other podcasts. people have spoken very deeply and spiritually and emotionally. And I know I'm more practical.

Danny

I'm the planner. But I do think that, my impression was that you want a cross section of pilgrims. And in that respect, we've all got a story to tell. And, you know, I don't think I've I mean, banker aside, he wasn't boring, but I don't think I've ever met anyone who's boring and hasn't got a got a got a to tell. Yeah. so, yeah, hesitant, I was.

Danny

But, you know, I think what you're trying to do is get more people to participate. And so I think the people who maybe think they don't have a story, there's no harm in giving it a go because you don't have to go through with it. No. as as you've said, if if if I don't like what we've come up with, you won't publish it. And No. Because if you don't like it, if you don't like it, I will not publish it.

Danny

Yeah. So I think, you know, maybe p you know, people who are hesitant. you know, give it a go because Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is that difficult. And then what you also say, it. it. for me, all the stories are important.

Danny

Spiritual stories, religious stories, bucket list stories, just about the structure. It really doesn't matter because everybody walks his own Camino and everybody gets that out of it. And I. I like the phrase, the Camino provide what you need and not what you want. And you every person, also the cycler and the person who is. rushing over the Camino to get the achievement. they get what they need and not per se what they want.

Danny

And I like that so much because in that phrase, because it makes everything possible, there is no judgment, there's no expectation, and it means that you can really be who you are on the Camino. So that's why when a person say here to me, oh yeah, but my story is not so important, so that's totally BS, really. Yeah. Every story has its own depth and always, I know, I did a lot of coaching of groups. I went to IT dude, but I also walked on the path of applied psychology.

Danny

So I did a lot of workshops and all that kind of stuff. And I noticed, for instance, that people who were not presenting themselves in a workshop were learning a lot by looking at other peoples and, another person doing something, and this is here the same. You listen to the stories and sometimes. a conclusion comes, an insight comes, which from a person you would never expect where you get it from. So that's why the, when the podcast becomes. homogeneous, so more of the same, then, it becomes more and more risky that you can get ideas and new insights because you hear all the time the same story.

Danny

Yeah. And now we and I love it. I love all these stories. Yeah. And, yeah, really.

Danny

And it's really yeah. It's it's for for me, it is so great to hear them. So before we close this episode. Frank, is there one thing you really want to say to your. I don't want to say camino family, but to your fellow to your fellow pilgrims or to be pilgrims.

Danny

Is this something you really want to say? This I need to say. I think I think for for anyone that's not done it and is thinking about it, I think you've just got to do it because I can understand the apprehensions about. beds, about travel, and all that sort of thing. but. until you do it, you don't you don't know what you're going to get out of it. You may hate it. That's fine. at least, you know, and it's done.

Danny

And the people who've already done it, I think if you haven't done it on your own, do it on your own, do a solo. because it's a different experience. I mean, I felt a bit selfish, doing it on my own, but then, we're retired.

Frank

We spend, my wife and I, we obviously spend a lot of time together. And I think it is important when you retired as a couple to do things independently. And. my wife did go off on holiday without me, so that's fine. We've both done things on our own. And. when I thought about it, I had never been away on my own at all, apart from with work.

Frank

You know, sixty four and that's the first time I've been away on my own. I wish I'd done it sooner, but then, you know, it's all it's easy to say that when you're retired and you've got the money to do it, when you're married with four kids and you've got a demanding job, it's impossible. Yeah. But still, you can do two weeks or something. Yeah.

Frank

So and I mean, even now, I don't really like being away more than three weeks because we do have family commitments at home, you know? So actually say. you can think about it, but just do it. I think you've just gotta do it. Yeah. Yeah.

Frank

Yeah. I totally agree. And I also totally agree what you say. Walking alone is such different experience.

Danny

And I also last year, I walked alone. I'm now turned sixty eight two weeks ago or something. I get afraid. I need to get seventy. Anyway, and last year, I was sixty seven, and it was the first time in my life, like you just said, I was on my own. for the first time.

Danny

Wow. It's such a strange experience. And so. it's it's oh, it's it's gave me a lot. It gave me really a lot. Yeah.

Danny

Yeah. So, Frank. for me, this was a very nice and very interesting, recording for the episode. And, I hope it was for you the same. And, Yeah. It's it's interesting to. because you you you you think about the Camino afterwards. you know, you debrief yourself, but it's not the same as talking to someone.

Danny

Yeah. And, yeah. No. It's it's it's a good experience. Yeah.

Danny

So, I really want to ask listeners to actively participate in becoming also like Frank here and a participant of the podcast because I think when we share that with each other, it becomes so much more powerful for yourself and also for others. So that's, yeah, I want to say about that. And then thank you very much, Frank. Yeah. It's great to talk to you again.

Danny

Yeah. And I'm looking forward to see you somewhere when you pass by. And don't pass by. I will haunt you in your dreams. I'll give you warning when I'm coming.

Danny

Okay. Great. Because then I know for sure that I'm here. Okay. Thank you very much.

Danny

And, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Bye.

Whether you are walking the Camino right now, or preparing for it, or perhaps you are back home, and maybe even suffering from PCS, the Post Camino Syndrome.

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Every person who learns the skill of Self-Reflection begins to see people differently.

You may still question WHAT someone DOES.

But the judgment about their INTENTION starts to disappear. And you enter the realm of non-judgement.

And non-judgment is experienced as unconditional love.

That is how REAL change begins.

With you.
Then the people around you.
Your city.
Your province.
Your country.
Your continent.
And eventually,
the world.

That is why ACTIVELY spreading the skill of Self-Reflection, like an unstoppable virus, is SO important.

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Thank you for listening, and Buen Camino.