Episode 14 - Rob from Sydney - Why walking alone taught me the value of connection

Danny

Hello, fellow pilgrims. I'm very pleased to have Rob here in another episode of the Your Inner Camino Podcast, a self-reflection podcast for pilgrims, by pilgrims. Rob and me, we are both pilgrims. You guys know that this podcast is not about the blisters, the planning, and the backpack, but more about the things that happen in you while walking.

I had a talk last week with Rob, just before we started recording this episode, and he has some very interesting stories to tell. But before that, could you introduce yourself to your fellow pilgrims?

Rob

Well, I'm a pretty uninteresting, average sort of pilgrim, I guess, Danny. I came to the Camino very late. I walked my first Camino at the age of fifty-seven, and I've walked a few now. I'm sixty-nine this year. I'll be seventy on my next one. I'm married with four kids. I live in Sydney, Australia. Still working way too hard, but I still manage to get time to go and walk Caminos. Not every year, but every couple of years.

Danny

So how many Caminos did you walk?

Rob

I suppose it depends what you class as a Camino. For me, a Camino is a pilgrimage that ends in Santiago. I've walked quite a few bits of Caminos, but full Caminos ending in Santiago, probably only four. Some of those are hybrids. For example, I walked the Vía de la Plata to Astorga, and then a little bit of the Francés, and then the Camino de Invierno, and then the Sanabrés into Santiago. But for me, that's one Camino.

Danny

Yeah, I understand. Many people are doing that because they're still working. It is difficult to get off for six weeks or longer. And then this one Camino is split up. I've heard of people walking for years. Last week there was a couple. They walked all the way through France, also in blocks of two weeks, and I believe it was six years in a row or something. But still, for them, it was one Camino.

Rob

I mean, I do mine in one go. For example, the Vía de la Plata, right the way out to Muxía, I think it was twelve hundred kilometers. I did it in one go, but for me, it's one Camino because I only entered Santiago once. Likewise, this year with my wife, we walked a fair bit on the Camino de Madrid. So that wasn't a Camino because it didn't end in Santiago. Then we walked the Sanabrés from Ourense into Santiago, and then we walked back from Muxía through Finisterre to Santiago.

I'm sort of in that phase where I want to do multiple ones now. It takes so long to get from Australia to Spain. I don't want to just walk one. I want to do a few.

Danny

So how long is this, traveling from Sydney here to Spain? How much time?

Rob

Generally, about twenty-four hours' flight time. This year, it was thirty hours because we had to go Sydney, Singapore, London, Madrid, so we had the waiting time in between. But I think it's worth it.

Danny

I think so, too. I'm very curious. Before we go into some examples, I'm always offering this podcast for magical experiences, Camino-provides moments, insights, even revelations, things you leave behind, all that kind of stuff. But before you start sharing the stories you want to share, I'm now wondering, and I can imagine your fellow pilgrims listening could have the same question: what makes you come back all the time?

Rob

That's a question I ask myself constantly. In fact, I take videos while I'm walking. I'm a bit of a tragic, and from my very first Camino, I started shooting videos and putting them up on YouTube. Not on the last Camino, but the one before that, the really long one in 2023, I can remember arriving in Muxía. It was the final day, and it was coming up to about twelve hundred kilometers over about two months.

I was at the top of that long, steep climb down into Muxía, and I had what I call my Forrest Gump moment. I just stopped and thought, I'm ready to go home now. When I sat on the rocks in Muxía that evening, I had convinced myself that I didn't need to walk any more Caminos. I felt that I'd learned enough from it.

The big lesson that I learned on that Camino was, whilst I love to walk alone and in solitude, the magical moments of the Camino that time were when I was part of a community. Drawing conclusions from that, I realized that I don't really need to dash away to Spain to walk on my own all the time. Maybe the lesson I have to bring back from the Camino is that lesson of community, and to enjoy community more at home. It was with a sense of relief, almost. I thought, I don't have to keep coming back here. But that feeling didn't last long.

So I'm still going back. When we were chatting the other day, I think I mentioned, for me, it's a really strange sensation. I do prefer walking alone. I find it's a much more profound experience. I can remember setting out alone in 2023, and literally, the first half hour walking out of Seville on my Vía de la Plata, I'm walking a lovely track up by the river there. I just felt like I was home. I don't know if that's good or bad.

It felt wonderful at the time because being back home for me on the Camino was dropping my day-to-day responsibilities, not having to worry about work matters, being able to just relax. What is it people say? Walk, eat, sleep, repeat. That was going to be my life for the next two months. It was like this huge weight off my shoulders, and I just relaxed into it straight away.

But then there's a degree of sadness in that as well, isn't there? Why do you have to go to Spain and walk for two months on your own to get that feeling?

Danny

I recognize a lot of what you say now because last year, I walked from Saint-Jean on my own. After León, somewhere there, the last two days, I got more and more the feeling, I'm done. That was the fourth time that I walked, and I have four Compostelas downstairs hanging in the Inner Camino House. I thought, okay, that's it. I'm done.

My wife was waiting at the square before the cathedral in Santiago because we had some business meetings talking about taking over an albergue. She drove all the way, three days, to Santiago. She was there on the square, which was awesome, that you arrive and your wife is standing there. After an hour or so, she asked me, do you want to walk any more Caminos? That was on the square. I said, no, I'm done. I don't need to walk anymore.

But that decision didn't last very long because from the square, we were heading to the pilgrim office to get the Compostela. I think we were halfway, and I said to my wife, no, I'm not done. I will walk again. This year, I will not walk, but next year, I will walk again.

Rob

I think I'll certainly walk every couple of years. I'm a relative newbie at this. I think I've got six Compostelas. But it's not so much... I'm going to contradict myself here. I was going to say it's not so much about the Compostela. I feel there are so many other routes that I want to walk. I really enjoy the more remote routes these days because I love the solitude and the reflection.

But it is about the Compostela as well. Not necessarily the bit of paper, but for me, it's about arriving in Santiago. The Compostela is nice. It's a sense of achievement. But for me, Santiago is the goal, and visiting the crypt, venerating the remains of Saint James. That's the goal. For me, that's what differentiates a Camino from a hike.

I think we talked about this before. People say, oh, you must enjoy hiking, Rob. No. I have no interest in hiking at all. It's got nothing to do with hiking.

Danny

We mentioned it to each other when we had the talk last time. I say to pilgrims here, when they come here in the house, I actually hate hiking. I hate hiking with no purpose.

Rob

Exactly. I don't hike at home.

Danny

Me too.

Rob

Beautiful hiking areas here in the Blue Mountains, west of Sydney, but I don't hike there. It's like, what's the point? Where am I going to?

Danny

Then I take the car.

Rob

But for me, walking a Camino, it's like a walking meditation, and it is a spiritual experience as well. That's what makes it very different for me, anyway.

Danny

One of the things, I mentioned it also in the other episodes, so people who listen to the podcast will recognize what I'm going to tell now. I contemplated a lot about why I feel at home on the Camino. What is different there than in daily life? I don't know if it makes any sense, what I want to say, but for me, I came to the conclusion that when we are walking the Camino, we meet people from all over the world, and we don't have any expectations. We meet people how they are.

There's no judgment, or hardly any judgment, and no expectations. So we connect very quickly on a deep level, and that feels like coming home. That led me also to the conclusion that when we walk the Camino as a pilgrim, here in Spain, doing one of the trails, that's normal life. What we do at home is daily life, which has not so much to do with normal life.

It is riddled with fear and driven by fear. Things like, you need to have an education, you need to have a job, you need to have this, otherwise... All the otherwise sentences that we say to each other. That's all fear-based things, and that's not there when you walk. The famous phrase, the Camino provides, is so deeply true for pilgrims. For me, I came to the conclusion that could be causing me to feel so at home.

Rob

I think so. I think why we also feel at home is that it's a much more natural environment to be in. I don't think, as humans, we're really designed to be working as we do, flat out all the time, and technology and pressure and stress. Not that a simple life isn't also stressful. But I think it's a much more natural life. We're outdoors all the time. We're amongst nature. We're doing something physical. We're interacting. We're being social.

I think that's kind of what we're designed to be. Not sitting in cubicles, punching away on computers. Does that really make us happy?

Danny

I don't want to go into that because we're talking with you, and it's not about my stories. But just before I retired, just before COVID, to be honest, I changed my whole approach. I was an IT consultant for commercial banks and things like that, supporting so-called agile environments. I started to drop all fear-based processes, really nearly everything, ending up with hardly any processes or procedures whatsoever, and the team started to fly.

But it took me a long time to move away from what I call fear-based structures to keep control of the projects. Finally, it showed also in my professional life. I finally made the turn there, and then I retired.

Rob

It's interesting. I haven't retired. I quite enjoy what I do. I run a small business. But what I found ever since walking my first Camino, which was 2015, so not that long ago, I found not only my attitude to life but my attitude to how I ran my business changed.

We don't want this to be a business discussion, but what I found was I was just so much more relaxed about everything. Life, work, everything. To be honest, almost a refusal to let things stress me. If it was going to be stressful, I'd rather not do it.

Danny

Because in most interviews, talks... It's not an interview, it's a talk with two pilgrims. I always end up asking, what is the effect of the Caminos in your daily life? Do you notice anything? So that's not per se a business talk. What are some moments, magical moments, Camino-provides moments? What would you like to share about one or two or three Caminos you walked?

Rob

I think most of the magic for me was on my first Camino. I think that could be true for a lot of people because it's so new. I enjoy immensely every one that I've done since, but nothing quite matches up to that first one.

I started on that Camino in quite an awkward situation, really. I think this led to me having so many magical moments, or whatever you want to call them, because I felt drawn to the Camino because I was really just burning out at work. I hate to admit it, but I saw that movie. I was watching it with my wife, and I thought, that's what I need to do. Just drop everything. Go and walk through Spain, chill, ponder life, what it's all about. So that's what I chose to do.

But I'm quite a bull at a gate at these things. I'm not exactly fit. I'm usually a bit overweight, and I was fifty-seven when I did that first one. So I got myself a personal trainer. I started training hard, and of course, what happened? I overtrained. I think about a month before I was due to go, I'd given myself Achilles tendinosis in both feet, and I'd actually pulled my back. For four to six weeks before that first Camino, I really wasn't able to walk very far, maybe five hundred meters, and I certainly couldn't carry a pack.

Still, I went. That was quite amusing, talking to the various medical people. This was prior to me getting into that state. As the Achilles tendinitis was coming on, I remember saying to a physio, of course, walking, it'll get better, won't it? He said, no, it'll just get worse. Walking is the worst thing you could do. But I thought, what the heck? I'm going. I've been waiting two years to do this.

I flew into Paris. I stayed in Paris overnight near Montparnasse to get the TGV down to Bayonne. Putting my pack on to walk from the station to my hotel in Paris overnight was about six hundred meters, and it was agony. Having the pack for the first time in six weeks, walking with the weight of the pack, I thought, what the heck am I doing? It was ridiculous.

But it ended up being an interesting exercise because I got to Saint-Jean and started walking. I wasn't sure if I'd get through the first one or two days, to be honest. I was so grateful to be there that I got in the habit of offering up a prayer in the morning to give thanks for just being there and having the opportunity to try to walk this Camino.

Then in the evening, I would give another prayer of thanks to say, thank you for letting me get through another day. I'd suggest, if there's anything you want to teach me during this journey, I'm open. Just really grateful to be here. That became my sort of routine as the days went by.

It was a struggle. During that first week, I was kind of a man on a mission. I was there to find out the meaning of life. But it was interesting because I didn't even know what the question was. I didn't know what question to ask. After about a week or so, I think I realized what the question was: what do you want out of life? That was the question. I was just struggling, but it was a really simple question.

That's the beauty, I think, of walking alone. You're just with your thoughts all day long. Whilst I love walking with other people, I find it a huge distraction. It's great for a while, but I like to be on my own mostly. After about another week, I think I finally found the answer. So that was really great. I had kind of achieved my goal in the first couple of weeks. I'd worked out what this big question of life was for me, and I'd worked out what I thought the answer was going to be.

Danny

Okay. Now you make me curious. Do you want to share what you found out?

Rob

Yeah. It was really simple. Happiness. Not just for me, but for my family, for those around me, for the people I work with. That's what life is: being happy, making other people happy. That had a profound effect on my business. Not positive, because I was no longer driven by material things.

Coming back to your question, has it had an impact? Huge impact. I'm much happier, but there's less in the bank because I'm not so driven by that. That was interesting. I mention that as a background because all the time I was walking, it was with this sense of gratitude. Wow, I'm here for another day. Wow, I'm here for another day.

I honestly didn't think I'd get to Santiago. In fact, I think by the time I reached Sarria, I was down to ten kilometers a day. Very often, people walking along a Camino, by the time they get to Sarria, they want to speed up and rush through the final straight. But I had to do it for ten days, which was interesting in itself because I recognized, well, you've got ten days of this section, which is a lot busier and noisier. Enjoy it. It's different. Enjoy it and embrace it. It was wonderful. I met some wonderful people during those last stages.

Camino moments... Any time I talk about these, I think people are going to listen to this and think I've totally lost my mind. But I think those who've walked a Camino would get it. For those who haven't walked a Camino, I would say, don't expect this sort of thing to happen. But walk with no expectation and just be open. I always say, walk with an open mind and an open heart and see what happens.

Danny

So what did happen?

Rob

It was probably after three or four weeks. I think it was just coming into León. At the time of that first Camino, my father-in-law was very sick. My wife was originally going to come on the Camino with me, but said, no, look, I really need to look after Dad, but you go.

I was carrying this guilt with me all the way because Pat, my wife, was looking after Dad. Other people were keeping the business running back home. All these people were stepping up, doing things that I felt I should have been doing. That guilt was weighing heavily on me a bit.

It would have been just before León, I think. This is going to sound like a Monty Python story, but I knelt by the side of the track. A very good Catholic friend of mine, I'm not a Catholic, but a very good Catholic friend of mine had given me this lovely antique rosary, which I wore. I knelt by the side of the track and held the crucifix and said, look, I'm struggling. I don't know what decision to make here. I've had a wonderful journey up to now. I've learned so much. I think I've gained a lot from it. I don't know that I need to complete this Camino and walk all the way to Santiago. Help me with this decision.

I just knelt there. I'm not sure what I expected. The clouds to part, and a finger to point down...

Danny

And what happened?

Rob

Nothing.

Danny

Nothing?

Rob

Nothing happened. So, fair enough. It was worth a go. I continued walking for a bit, and I think about a hundred meters down the track was an old shepherd walking towards me with his dog. We glanced at each other, and I said, buenos días. He said, buenos días.

As we glanced at each other, our eyes met. A shiver just went up my spine because my father had died thirteen, fourteen years previously. In this old shepherd I was looking at, I felt I was looking into the eyes of my father, without a doubt. It just stunned me, and I stopped for a second.

Maybe two, three seconds later, I glanced over my shoulder to see where he'd gone, and he had stopped. He was glancing back and just gave me a wave, and on he walked. That's really weird. I just felt I was looking at my dad. I was really unsure what all that was about, and I continued walking.

Then up a bit of an incline. As you do, you hear people coming up behind you on the gravel. Crunch. This was someone walking a bit quicker. Suddenly there was a slap on my back, and this other Aussie from Melbourne said, how are you going, Rob? It was another Rob from Melbourne. I said, really good, thanks. How are you tracking? Good. We chatted for a few minutes about people we'd seen and how things were going.

He's quite tall and walks a bit quicker than me, so he went on ahead. I said, see you in León, Rob. Off he went. Just the energy from talking to him, I felt sort of reenergized and much more positive about the whole thing.

Probably fifty meters later, my phone rang, and it was my wife calling. My wife never calls me on Camino. We have a brief FaceTime chat, like six in the morning when I'm setting out, and that's it. She called me in the middle of it. I said, why are you calling? Is something wrong with Dad? She said, no, Dad's fine. I just thought I'd call and see how you were going.

I said, fine, actually. I was feeling a bit guilty and thought maybe I should come home and help you. She said, no, absolutely not. Dad's fine. You're not a heart surgeon. He's fine. He's well looked after. You do this for us. You get to Santiago, and if you've got time, you walk to the ocean, but you do it for both of us.

I was just stunned because that cannot possibly be coincidence. I'd asked for help, and I honestly thought I saw my late father. A guy I hadn't seen for two weeks came and buoyed up my enthusiasm and energy, and my wife called out of the blue. Now if that's not the Camino providing, or someone providing when you need it, I don't know what is. And there were other things that happened.

It must have been a couple of days later, actually, because I'd sort of committed myself now to walking all the way to Santiago, and I was feeling a lot less guilty about it. I had a few slumps along the way. I think it was coming into, I forget the name of the village now, Via Tueto or something just before Hospital de Órbigo. I stopped for a coffee, and my Achilles were getting really bad. I was having to keep them bandaged. If I could possibly see a physio, I would see a physio and be icing them and all this sort of stuff.

This day, I was feeling a bit sorry for myself, sitting there having a coffee inside the café. I noticed a pilgrim out of the corner of my eye come around the corner and go into the café. I didn't really look at him, but I just noticed that he had really bright, oddly colored socks, and they seemed to be different colors. It's funny, the things that you register.

Anyway, he came out and sat down at the next table. It was some distance away. I glanced across and thought, oh, you idiot. That's not a multicolored sock. It's a prosthetic limb. He had an artificial leg, which was these bright colors. Honestly, I felt ashamed. I thought, Rob, you've just got Achilles tendinitis. This guy's walking with one leg. Gee, just snap out of it, will you? This is ridiculous.

These sorts of, I call them signs, these sorts of signs were happening all the time on that first Camino. So I snapped out of it. I thought, don't be such an idiot. There's nothing wrong with you. You've got a bit of Achilles tendinitis. That's all.

I set off towards Hospital de Órbigo. There's a section of track there where you walk down, I think it's an old railway line, next to a railway line, actually. It was quite an overcast day, and I can picture it vividly. There was this beautiful tree, like a cherry blossom tree, full of these pink blossoms. I stopped just to look at this tree. Like I said, it was a bit overcast, a very still day.

I just paused, and as I did a lot on that Camino, just gave thanks for being able to get through the day. Thank you for another lesson. I'm getting on with it, and I'll get to Santiago. All of a sudden, this is going to sound ridiculous, but a little gap appeared in the clouds, and the sun shone down onto the tree. A puff of wind blew a whole bunch of the blossoms off the tree, and it was just like confetti. Pink confetti in the sunlight.

I have to confess I had tears running down my face. I was reminded of a scene. Have you seen that movie, The Last Samurai?

Danny

Yeah.

Rob

Tom Cruise is in it, and there's one of the final scenes, I think, where the old samurai is on the battlefield, and he's been mortally wounded. He's lying there, and he's about to die. He looks up and sees the cherry blossoms, and he's just, perfect. That's a perfect way to go. I was kind of reminded of that scene. It's just such a beautiful scene. The sun had come out. The air was full of cherry blossoms, and I thought, well, it's another sign, mate. Keep going. Keep going.

But I often say to people, I intentionally don't try to tell people how to walk a Camino. We shouldn't, those of us who've walked a few. Everybody should walk their own Camino and do it in a fashion they want to. But I do point out that if you're able to walk it alone, I think you have much deeper experiences because you're totally free of distraction.

The last one this year, I walked four hundred kilometers or so with my wife, and that was wonderful. Were there any magical moments? No. Because we were talking about where we're going to stay and what we're going to eat tonight. Being with somebody like that all the time takes you away from just letting your mind wander, I think.

That's what I enjoy so much about the Camino. When you walk with an open heart, walk with an open mind, let your mind just wander, these things come in. Get distracted, you don't even notice them.

Danny

I fully agree because the first time I walked, in 2013, with my son, he was thirteen at that time. One year later, I married on the Camino. We walked part of the Camino together with my wife as a honeymoon. Then in 2018, I walked the same track that I did with my son, but then with my daughter Sauter. She was thirteen, fifteen at the time. Last year, I walked alone. I started in Saint-Jean, and it was the first time in my whole life, actually, to go away alone for such a long time.

In the beginning, from Saint-Jean till Logroño, I felt alone. I wanted to be with other pilgrims. I was afraid to be alone, sit alone. When I was sitting alone somewhere in a cafeteria, I really felt sorry for myself. You know, men can do that quite well, feeling sorry for themselves.

Then after Logroño, that started to change. You go into the Meseta, and I really started to cherish the moments, the mornings that I could walk totally by myself, alone. After León, the whole thing changed because there were many more people there, and it really didn't matter anymore. If I was sitting there having dinner with other pilgrims, that was fine. But when I was sitting there having dinner totally on my own, that was also fine. It was totally changed.

There was not that clinging to something which should be, which is not there. It was so open and free, and that feeling is still there. It's just like when the pilgrims come here in the Inner Camino House, which they do every day. It is now a bit more quiet because this half of August is more quiet, but still we have ten, fifteen, twenty pilgrims per day. I love it when they come, and we have nice talks and chats, sometimes not. When there is nobody, that's also good. There's no hanging on to something my brain thinks should be, and I really feel free.

Rob

That's great. I think that's a wonderful illustration that sometimes the Camino gives you what you need, not what you want.

Danny

Exactly.

Rob

It enabled you to get out of your comfort zone, where you felt that you had to have people around you all the time, and to actually be really comfortable being on your own.

Danny

I know. I remember sitting in Pamplona. There it was really bad. I don't know how many days it is, five days' walk or something. There were festivities the whole weekend, all kinds of things happening in the city. I was sitting there totally on my own, and it was really bad because I felt so alone, feeling so much pity for myself.

Rob

I'll give you a couple of examples of that. I know exactly what you mean. Three years ago, when I set out on the Vía de la Plata, I thought, I want to walk a more remote one. It's not that remote, but it's a heck of a lot more remote than the Francés. I want to walk a more remote one, and I want to walk a long one. I think I walked seven days before I saw another pilgrim, and I was totally comfortable with it. Wherever I was staying, I was alone. I was eating alone. I was totally comfortable with it.

It was funny. I was walking through, I think it was a national park, and there was a sandy track. I could see footprints in the track, and I felt like Robinson Crusoe. There are other pilgrims up ahead! Then I started leaving before dawn because it was getting hot, and I found them. Everybody else was leaving a bit before dawn. I say everybody else. There were about ten other people, I think, on that journey at the same time.

It's funny what you say about, what's that saying? Never so lonely as in a crowd. I felt that on very busy Caminos. I can remember it was in the albergue in Terradillos on the Camino Francés. I was walking on my own, and I went in to have dinner. I was in a private room that night, which was probably not a good thing to do. There were some big, noisy groups at dinner, and I'm sitting in a corner on my own. Is it a guy thing? I don't know. You suddenly feel extra lonely.

I think that's the only time it's happened to me. If that happens, I think it's very difficult walking on your own to join a group, but I'll always look out for other people who are on their own. Not everybody wants company, but politely say, can I join you for a coffee or a meal, or whatever it is? Most people are grateful to have a bit of company.

Danny

You don't speak their language, and they don't speak yours, but then you get Google Translate. I think also that the other pilgrims listening, I'm sure they can recognize that when you walk alone and you're totally happy being there, and then you suddenly hit a city like Burgos, Pamplona, Logroño, or whatever, you stay there at night. What I did, I stayed two nights in a big city, so one day's rest.

These are the places which I really like to see because there's a lot to see, but they're also the places where I felt really alone.

Rob

Because there are so many other pilgrims.

Danny

There are so many pilgrims there, and you see the groups hanging out, and you get jealous because you're not in a group. I recognize that also. I'm Dutch, and the Netherlands is a very tiny country with a lot of people. I always felt alone and lonely in these urban areas.

Five years ago, four and a half years ago, we moved to Sweden. At the end, we lived in a small town with five people, and I felt less lonely with five people than in the Netherlands with so many people around me.

Rob

I get that totally.

Danny

You hear that a lot from people living in the city, that they don't know their neighbors. Now we live here in Viloria de Rioja, and I'm living in the big city now. Twenty-five people are living here. Every evening, if I sit outside in the garden where we have a bench and a parasol, where the pilgrims can sit, within a short period of time, villagers will flock around and start talking to me in Spanish, which I don't understand yet. But you don't feel lonely.

I think that also contributes a lot to what I heard you say in the beginning, I feel at home. That's not only you. I ask this question a lot. Around three thousand pilgrims we've invited into our place this year, and so many of them say the same thing: I feel at home, and I want to go home again and again.

Rob

I think we have to be very careful in these discussions with people listening who haven't walked a Camino yet. Everybody's different. I love nothing more than to walk alone. That's just me. But I really like it if there's one or two other people in the village at the end of the day. Walking the more remote routes, there aren't always other people there.

Danny

We had a power outage here in Viloria. Suddenly, poof, everything was gone. It also was not just a few seconds, but it lasted a long time. Actually, now a week later, I'm sitting here again with Rob from Australia. We will wrap up the interview we did last week. The last thing we were talking about was the difference between feeling alone and lonely, and solitude. That's what we were discussing last week. What do you want to share about that?

Rob

We were talking about how I like to walk alone, but I enjoy the company of other pilgrims in the evening, one or two. I find that's really nice, and you can have some great discussions and so on. You were reflecting on how you find big cities and things a little bit overpowering, and it feels very lonely.

I was going to relate a story. I was on my very first Camino, and I was sort of loosely in Camino families, as people refer to them. Groups of people who tend to hang out together. Somebody decided, we'll all meet up, I think it was in Burgos, for dinner. That's a great idea. As far as I knew, there were going to be like ten people there. I turned up, and there were sixty.

Danny

Okay, wow.

Rob

The guy who sent the invite out was very social and connected with all kinds of people. I just felt really uncomfortable being in such a big group. When you're used to walking alone and the solitude and reflecting, and then suddenly you're in this big group. Call me a wimp, but I had to give my apologies and leave. I found a couple of people down the street that I knew and had dinner with them.

So I think there's that balance. Even though you like to walk alone, you can sometimes feel a bit lonely. Maybe it's whether you're an introvert or extrovert. I think I'm a bit in between. Sometimes big groups can be a bit overpowering. I'd say to people, be aware of that, whether you're an introvert or extrovert.

I'm sort of in between. If I see other people sitting alone, sometimes I'll say, can I join you? Because I would like a bit of company for dinner or something. Equally, if you're in a big group and you see someone sitting alone, they might not want to join you, but maybe just ask them.

Danny

But it's quite difficult. I think I'm very similar to you because I like company and being together with people, but in bigger groups, it becomes very uncomfortable. Like last Sunday, our neighbors had been married fifty years, and they invited us. The whole Spanish family was there and some Spanish neighbors, and we were invited.

I really feel tension before I go there, that I need to join that group. Also because you don't speak the language, that makes it even more difficult. But that's not new. I've had that my whole life, and I avoid parties and all that kind of stuff. I'm an extrovert, but I'm also an introvert.

Rob

It's weird. I can get on the stage and talk and give a speech to people. I don't mind that at all. Put me in a cocktail party with fifty people, and just...

Danny

You crawl away in the corner.

Rob

I feel like I want to. It's interesting you say that. On my last longish Camino, the Vía de la Plata, which ended up being about eleven hundred kilometers, I loved the time walking alone. But I also walked for about ten days with a couple that I met along the way, and that was great. We got on really well. We didn't walk together all the time, but we had most meals together and stayed in the same places. That was really nice.

Then they went off on a different route. I met up with a couple of guys, and we walked together for about ten days. That was nice. We're not joined at the hip. We'd walk apart during the day, but you had people to hang out with at the breaks. That was nice.

Danny

Last week, you were also talking about that, and I was thinking about it. I loved the Meseta so much. From Logroño, the Meseta already starts, actually. The landscape is very solitary, and I loved it. I was really intrigued by what you say about the Plata. But do you have enough places to sleep there, or is that a challenge?

Rob

It takes a little bit more logistics. Some of the stages can be a little bit longer. There isn't the infrastructure, so you have to carry food and water for the day. There are no cafés along the way most days. But it was just glorious, the peace and the solitude. I love it.

It's interesting that my next Camino is going to be a blend. I'd love to walk another remote one like that. It's probably going to be the Mozárabe down south, walking from Almería up towards Granada and Mérida. It's mountainous, so it'll be quite tough. Then I'm going to go and walk some other bits, maybe the Salvador, maybe some of the Primitivo. You'll never guess which bit I'm going to walk at the end.

Danny

Camino Francés?

Rob

From Sarria. I'm going to make a point of walking from Sarria.

Danny

That I really can understand.

Rob

I haven't done it since 2018, and I want to see what it's like now. I suppose, in a way, I'm hoping to share with other people, hey, it's not all that bad. You read all this stuff that it's so busy. I'm going with a very positive outlook, and I want to enjoy it. I want to enjoy the busyness and the crowds.

Danny

That's really interesting because here in the Inner Camino House, we also talk about that. People have the feeling that from Sarria, it becomes like hell because it's so busy, and you need to fight for your bed, and you walk in traffic-jam-type situations.

Rob

There's a degree of that, but there are ways around it.

Danny

It is and it isn't. Last year, I walked that part as well. Yes, it is busy. I walked that same part in 2018, in 2014. All four times, I also walked from Sarria. Yes, it is much busier than all the other parts, but still, I got up very early. That's what I do anyway. Half past five, six at the latest in the morning, I'm on the street and walking with my headlight. I love it when the sun comes up and you see the dawn.

Rob

Oh, marvelous.

Danny

My heart starts to glow when I think about that. It is so beautiful. You see the other pilgrims, but there's not much talk. There is a kind of feeling of unity that I have when we walk there. We don't talk because people walk by themselves, perhaps in groups. But for me, it feels like unity because we all walk to the same goal, and we all are nearly there.

It can be a little bit more crowded in the cafeterias, yes. Sometimes you walk with twenty, thirty people in a smaller area, and it feels like an urban walk.

Rob

But there are all these tactics.

Danny

Then I just wait. The group continues, and I wait, and then I walk again. You can avoid it and still enjoy it. I don't have that experience at all.

It is the same with the wildfires. When I made the decision last year in January to walk in September, on the news there were big wildfires. There were indeed enormous wildfires here in Spain, like this year. This year, I was a week in the middle of Spain, in Madrid, Toledo, and there was a huge wildfire, really big.

Also on the Camino. If you look at the news, it looks as if the whole of Spain is on fire, which is not the case. It is a huge country. If you look at Google Maps, you can put on a layer, and then you see that the wildfires are there, but you can walk. I really needed to break through the impression I got from the news, that it was really dangerous to walk there because of all the wildfires.

I needed to dig through it. Then I decided not to watch the news anymore in that respect because if I looked at Google Maps, I saw, okay, there is a wildfire near León and up near Lugo. Yes, they are there, but I can still walk. Sometimes they really touch a Camino route, and then you need to take the bus, but it is not dangerous. If you keep alert with Google, there is even a special app, EU Wildfire. I put it on, and it's really awesome. It gives signals, and it is not that dangerous.

It's the same with Sarria. People are talking about it in the Facebook groups. I really like that you brought it up, to be honest, because I find it quite annoying. People really get a wrong impression, and they don't do the Camino because they are afraid.

Rob

That's going to be my mission next year. I'm going to do some solitude-type Caminos. I want to finish on that, and I'm going to shoot lots of video and put it up for people to look at. My purpose will be, hey, look, it's a glorious final hundred kilometers. It's not that bad. Now, it could be that it is that bad, but I don't think so.

Danny

No, it is not. The only thing which I really didn't like, because I arrived on the seventeenth of October last year, and I wanted of course to go into the cathedral, there were really long queues to get in. That was not the case in 2013 and 2014. Even in 2018, I still could go into the church very well. Now, also joining the pilgrim Mass, it was really hard to get a spot in the church.

Rob

The midday Mass.

Danny

The midday Mass.

Rob

It's very long.

Danny

That I really didn't like. It was mid-October, and it was so crowded in the city. I'm not a city guy, so I don't like that at all. Many people loved it. That's not my thing. That was the only thing I didn't like so much. But the walk itself from Sarria to Santiago, and even walking into Santiago...

Rob

Nice walk.

Danny

It was really great. Yes, there were more people, but it was not that I needed to walk over heads and use my elbows to get somewhere.

Rob

Now here's a question for you. Have you ever walked out to Fisterra or Muxía?

Danny

No. I've been there last year, but we went by bus because we didn't have the time anymore. So I didn't walk.

Rob

It's interesting what you say. You're not a city person, and this might be interesting for people. Can people comment on these podcasts? I'm not sure how podcasts...

Danny

On the website, they can comment.

Rob

Maybe people would want to comment about this. If you've never walked a Camino before, I would say there's something you need to be aware of. When you arrive in Santiago, there can be a huge letdown. You can get this huge sense of disappointment and sadness. A lot of people say this happens.

I think it's primarily because you've had such a joyous time walking the Camino, and you've had this lovely, peaceful life, just walk, eat, sleep, repeat. Suddenly, it's all come to an end. There's no brass band. There's no ticker-tape parade. You're just standing in the square.

Danny

Only the bagpiper.

Rob

The bagpiper, and you're going to go home soon. It can be a real letdown, so just be aware of that. But if people have the time, consider walking on to Fisterra or Muxía.

Fisterra is a lovely walk. I've walked it a couple of times, and I always thought it was kind of an add-on. People get to Santiago and, if I've got a few more days, I'll walk to Fisterra. It's a lovely route in its own right. It really is nice. Fisterra is a little bit touristy. You can walk up to the lighthouse, and there's the zero marker and all that kind of stuff. But if you have the time, walk on to Muxía.

You know that scene in the movie The Way when the Romani people say to the character Tom, when he's taking his son's ashes to the sea, no, you have to go to Muxía and throw his ashes into the sea? He said something like, I'm not a Catholic. I think the response is, this has got nothing to do with religion.

That's what it feels like when you get to the sea at Muxía. Just these bare rocks with the waves crashing on them. There's a little chapel. I've ended a Camino there three times, and it is glorious just to sit on the headland and watch the sun go down over the ocean. It is the place to finish a Camino, I think, if you have the time.

Danny

I was thinking, last year we also went to Muxía, and it was raining and cold. It was not nice at all.

Rob

You get the tourist buses. I'll tell you what the difference is. Last time I was there, I think sunset was about ten p.m. or something. There were a few tourist buses there during the day, and I went up just before sunset. I think there were seven or eight pilgrims on the hillside. It was like some Stone Age ritual or something because everybody had found their little spot on a rock down by the ocean or up on the hillside. There were just these seven or eight pilgrims looking toward the sun, sitting there with their thoughts. It was magical.

Danny

But we also touched something else, something much deeper, actually, talking about the busyness and the wildfires, and people not going on the Camino because they are afraid. One of the things we talked about is that the Camino provides in many ways. Most of the time, the things you need, not per se what you want, but it provides. We feel safe. We can rest in the assurance that there is help somewhere when we need it. That is what people all talk about when they walk the Camino.

When you are home, daily life is riddled with fear. You look at the news, and you get afraid of the wildfires. You look at the Facebook groups, and you get afraid that it is too busy. This is exactly what is happening in daily life. You need to have a high education, otherwise. You need to do sports, otherwise. You need to have a house, otherwise. You need to have a lot of money in the bank, otherwise. All these otherwise things are statements of fear.

Rob

The Camino teaches us that we don't need anything, really.

Danny

Exactly. That's why I find it so painful to see all these remarks in the Facebook groups about, the Camino is changing. That's another one. The Camino is changing. Yes, of course it is changing. When I walked in 2013 for the first time, the people who had already walked the Camino ten times were complaining that the Camino in 2013 was changing. Now we are in 2026, and of course it has changed again. That's life. Everything changes all the time.

Of course there is sadness that the past is not there anymore. I have to say, I'm sixty-eight, and I miss things from my past, but I also see the beauty of the things now in our life. Because things are changing and the pain of that, we also don't walk. We don't walk anymore because it is so busy, and it was not busy before.

This whole thing we just talked about, I find it quite important that we become aware that if we don't walk the Camino, then the fear has conquered.

Rob

That's right.

Danny

It determines our life again. How many people work their whole life in a job they don't like anymore? For me, I'm not a typical guy. If I work in an area where I feel my energy goes down, I try to change it, and I go. For me, it feels like an existential threat if I stay there. I can't do that.

Rob

Some would argue, though, that you're very lucky and that you have that choice, just to play devil's advocate for a minute. There are people who have to stay in jobs that they hate.

Danny

But that's not true.

Rob

Depends on their circumstances.

Danny

Still, because I'm the example that it is not true.

Rob

I'm thinking in developing countries.

Danny

I know. This is not easy. But for me, when I was in a position where I felt that I need to go to my work on Monday, that was a red flag that I needed to do something. I could say when I was forty-five, I have never worked a day in my whole life. People looked at me like, how then?

Rob

Because you enjoy it.

Danny

Because I enjoyed it. When it changed, then I took action. I tried to change it in the situation where I was, and if I could not change it, I left. I can tell you it was sometimes really challenging.

Rob

We don't want to make this a work conversation, but I left employment and started my own business.

Danny

But it is also related to the Camino because it determines so much of our lives. It is difficult because you need to stretch over your own border. The Camino, especially with the wildfires and the Sarria thing, is a very good thing to see the threshold where you're bumping into yourself. Then say, what will happen when I do that little step? Because the risk of walking the Camino when it is busier is not an existential threat. It isn't.

Rob

It's interesting because I think it's a mindset thing. On my very first Camino, I think I mentioned, I was injured all the way. By the time I got to Sarria, I could only walk about ten kilometers a day. Here I was, I'd come to this bit which everybody said was awful, and I was going to have to walk this for ten days.

I sat there and said, you can either be grumpy at the crowds and have a really poor time, or you can embrace this and talk to as many of these new pilgrims as possible and enjoy it. That's what I did. I met some amazing people with amazing stories. I just embraced it, and I had a wonderful ten days.

Danny

To be honest, I think what we are talking about now is a very important topic. Also, that you want to make a statement, that you go on solitary Caminos, but you want to walk from Sarria.

Rob

I'm going to walk Sarria to Santiago in a Holy Year.

Danny

Oh, boy.

Rob

Next year is a Holy Year.

Danny

I know.

Rob

I can't pick any busier time, and I'm going to enjoy it. I will record it. We'll be able to see.

Danny

Also, the whole thing with booking. People walk the first time, especially when you come from far away, outside Europe. People are booking the whole Camino from Saint-Jean all the way to Santiago, and you're stuck in your own booking prison. If you have pain, you cannot stop because you booked. If you cancel that booking, your whole building of bookings crumbles. So you need to continue. That's also fear.

Rob

Confession time, Danny. Confession time.

Danny

Sorry?

Rob

Confession time. On my Camino this year with my wife, I booked quite a lot up front because we were walking the Camino de Madrid, which is quite remote. There are not a lot of options. She had only ever walked the Francés before. It's like, will we get a bed? Will we get a bed? So I made a point of booking a few to ease that. But I made sure there were some days where we couldn't book, just for that exposure. We survived.

Danny

I also booked. Last year, I did everything. I started off without booking. Then I noticed that I got stressed because I wanted to be there in time. Otherwise, I don't get a bed. I had nice talks with people, and I had the feeling, I need to continue. Then I started booking the whole week, and I really got stressed because of that. There was so much communication going on with albergues, and I didn't know which one it was anymore.

I got stressed, so I ditched that again. Then, and that worked really well for me, I was in an albergue, and I felt, okay, tomorrow I can walk so many kilometers. Which is the next city? Then I booked just the next day.

Rob

Whatever works for you.

Danny

Exactly. That's okay. Especially if you go from Sarria, and especially next year with the Holy Year.

Rob

I will book all of that up.

Danny

I can imagine that. But still, not going on the Camino because of the news and the messages on Facebook, I really challenge people to look again. What are you really afraid of? What could it mean for you when you say, okay, I'm afraid of the busyness, that I don't get a bed, but I still do it, and I take some precautions?

Perhaps you book everything. That's fine. If you feel safe with that, do it. Then still walk because it is a very big step for yourself to go over that small hurdle. Like I said before, this is not an existential threat.

Rob

I think there's one thing we have to appreciate here. For somebody who's never walked a Camino, it can be a scary thought.

Danny

It feels like it.

Rob

You and I, we've walked loads of Caminos. We're happy to turn up on day one and just walk because we kind of know how it works. If that place is full, we know that we can go somewhere else, or we'll get a bus to the next village.

Danny

Or a taxi.

Rob

We have all the workarounds. But for a new person, they probably worry about that a lot.

Danny

I would totally agree with what you say. If you are there for the first time and you're worried that you don't get a bed, book it. Create safety, whatever it is. But still go. For me, the message is, look at your fear, acknowledge your fear, but don't let the fear determine your life. That's actually what we talk about.

If you still go, then you feel the fear, but it doesn't determine your life. Of course, you take precautions, you book. When I'm sailing on the North Sea with a sailing yacht, I am afraid when I have wind force eight, and waves like three meters high. Yes, so I take precautions, but I still do it. I don't do it on purpose. It always comes when I'm on the water and I cannot go anywhere else.

Rob

I sail as well. It gives you a few good stories to tell.

Danny

Oh, yes. With wind force four or something, still I need to take precautions. I still have situations where my heart is pounding, and I think, oh, wow. That's always there. But at the moment that fear determines your life, then you're not in control of your own life anymore. For me, that feels like an existential threat.

That's why I just mentioned, when it goes like that in a job position, it feels existential. For most people, not, but I'm a silly guy. Then I just go and do something else, which is challenging. I quit a job. You know, when you get fired and you can go the same day?

Rob

You walk out with a box.

Danny

But I did it the other way around. I said, I quit now, and I don't come back tomorrow. The boss looked at me because that's not possible in the Netherlands. You needed to stay three months at that time. He said, no, you can't go because you need to stay three months. I said, what do you want to do? Fire me on the spot? Be my guest. Then I get unemployment money.

Rob

To come back onto the track of the fear that people have about walking a Camino, you can work yourself up and create a lot of anxiety, I think, worrying about what could happen. As you say, if you're worried about getting a bed, book the beds. If you're worried about all the logistics, wash my mouth out with soap and water, use a tour company. If that's going to make you feel confident, if that's going to give you comfort, and if that's what you've got to do to get out there and walk a Camino, then do that.

Then you'll find, actually, it's not that difficult. Then you'll want to maybe wing it a bit more.

Danny

That's also it. Everybody walks their own Camino in the way it is possible. I had an interview with somebody which will come online soon. That person asked me, what do you think about people who are cycling the Camino? People have a lot of opinions about cycling the Camino.

Rob

Opinions about that.

Danny

I know. I also think they miss out on things, but the thing is, everybody does their own Camino. Perhaps if you are a cyclist and you're sitting there in a village, and everybody is together but you feel an outsider because you cannot connect with them, because you don't have the same experience, that's perhaps the purpose of their Camino on the bike. Then perhaps they start walking.

You also see people walking thirty kilometers a day or more, and they are like a rocket passing by. Boom.

Rob

That's the way they do it.

Danny

That's the way they do it. Another person does five kilometers a day. I've come so far. I'm not there anymore at all about any expectations of how to walk the Camino. Just do it. That's the thing for me. Just do it. Take precautions.

Rob

It's interesting that you mentioned bikes. I'm not totally anti-bike, but if people are considering doing a Camino on a bike, I'd just say, have a think about it. If you haven't walked a Camino, you probably don't understand it. I think the challenge with a bike is that you're moving through the environment a little bit too quickly.

A walking pace is a wonderful pace to cross a country. It's a very natural pace, and you're absorbing everything around you. You're connecting with nature, with other pilgrims. On a bike, it's just happening a little bit quicker, and you've got the distraction of riding the bike.

The point you made earlier, you might feel a bit of an outsider because all the walking pilgrims bump into each other all the time, and they get to know each other. Whereas the cyclist is doing two or three stages a day, so they never see the same people again.

Danny

Exactly.

Rob

So it's a different journey. I'm not saying it's a bad journey. I'm saying it's a different one.

Danny

It is a different journey. I agree with that. I moved away from it. I also had judgments about that. When I was walking the first time, suddenly a biker passed by, and I was jumping three meters in the air because I was totally shocked. I really was pissed off. I had all these things, but I moved away from that completely because I know now that everybody experiences the Camino. The Camino provides what you need, not what we think they need.

I think that's so important to be aware of. Coming back to the fear of the wildfires and the busy part from Sarria or whatever, take precautions, but do it anyway. That's what I think, and I love it. When you walk next year, please give me the things you send out because I will repost them on Facebook. I really think it is important that people start to hear another sound than just the fear drums.

Rob

That's right. That's probably why, to be honest, a couple of years back, I walked the Vía de la Plata. I wanted the challenge. I didn't know if I could do it or not. It's always put up there as quite a scary route to walk. You're going to walk thirty, thirty-five kilometers a day, and you've got to carry four liters of water. It's not that bad at all. A little bit of careful planning.

Danny

I like it, actually, because I was thinking about that. But because of the fear that I cannot do it, because of trouble with my knee, and I don't like to walk long distances. Now, because we talk about it, at this moment I become aware that I also have fear for that part. That's why I decided to walk again from Logroño to León next year.

Rob

To quote you, I recognized the fear in myself, and I spent a long time planning it. I used the Gronze website, and I thought, surely I don't have to walk thirty kilometers every day. I can't do that. I managed to get it down to an average of about twenty a day. There were one or two days where I had to get close to thirty. That was fine.

Danny

But it is interesting because fear is creeping under your skin without you being aware of it. Now we are talking about it, at this moment, as we speak, I become aware that fear was creeping under my skin for that part. That's why my brain started to get arguments not to do it and do it the other way.

One of the arguments is, okay, I live now here on the Camino Francés, and the inner Camino part starts here. I came to that awareness, and I want to dive deeper into the inner Camino. So I need to walk from Logroño to León. Those are all the arguments to keep me away from the Vía de la Plata.

Rob

I've got the same sort of fears thinking about other routes I want to walk, the Primitivo. The more I look at it, I go, oh, no. These hills, they're ginormous. There's like a nine-hundred-meter ascent some days. Then I'm looking at it rationally. I'm saying, well, I can break down these stages so that they're a little bit shorter and a bit more manageable. Hopefully, I'll survive it. I'm sure I will.

Danny

Yesterday, I watched the movie The Way, My Way.

Rob

Isn't that great?

Danny

It's a great movie. Finally, I was able to watch it. It's quite a challenge here in Europe. I really laughed so much because last year, I started in Saint-Jean, and I wanted to go to Roncesvalles, like the main character in the movie. His wife said, no, you need to stop in Orisson.

Rob

I remember that scene.

Danny

I had literally the same discussion with my wife last year. It was a hundred percent the same because my brain said, hey, I'm not a pussy. That's just eight kilometers. I can go to Roncesvalles, the whole thing. I was watching that scene, and I thought, did they film that last year in my house?

He continued to Roncesvalles. I stopped in Orisson. I really stopped.

Rob

That's good. But it's funny. People watch that, and they say, I didn't enjoy the movie because, excuse my French, but that character is such a dickhead. I say to people, yes, he is. I've interviewed the author and director, Bill Bennett, and he fully admits, I was a complete dickhead when I walked that. I was just an arrogant know-it-all. He said that Chris Haywood, the actor, played it perfectly. That's what it was like.

Danny

It's really interesting. That scene, it was so like what you say. If you go on the Primitivo with all the hills and nine hundred meters' ascent...

Rob

It's like being on the Francés every other day.

Danny

Exactly. It really teaches you how to take care of yourself. Your brain is forcing you to do things that you think you should do, must do, because you are not an old bloke. In my case, I'm sixty-eight, and next year I'm sixty-nine. Then you think, I'm still healthy, all these things. The Camino has the tendency... No, not the tendency, you cannot avoid it. It makes you aware of all the things you have in your brain that you should do, must do, and you cannot do. Period. You need to listen to it. If you don't listen, it will get you.

Rob

My wife keeps telling me, be careful. But I take all the safety precautions. I have emergency gear with me. I've got the AlertCops app on my phone, all that sort of stuff. If I'm on top of a peak and the weather's getting bad, I'm not going to be stupid. I'm going to go back down, take another route. You've got to work within your capabilities. Particularly if you're on your own, you've got to be a little bit extra careful.

But anyway, anybody listening to this, don't worry if you're walking the Camino Francés or something like that. You'll have a hundred other pilgrims around you.

Danny

They will save you. But also, it causes you to walk four, five extra kilometers. Last year, I was walking after Orisson, and there you have that very famous place where the roads go left and right. On the right, it is just grass, and the paved road goes to the left. You should take the right side on the grass. But I was walking there in my Camino zombie mode.

Rob

You followed the tarmac road.

Danny

No, even worse. There were two pilgrims going the wrong way, and I just tagged along after them. It took me four kilometers or something.

Rob

Oh, no.

Danny

Really. Then I started to realize.

Rob

Did you have to backtrack, or could you...?

Danny

It was eight kilometers extra that day.

Rob

Wow.

Danny

Because there was no path between that road and the Camino track. I needed to go back.

Rob

Over the top of a mountain.

Danny

I was so in my own thoughts, and the other two were still walking in front of me.

Rob

Remind me never to walk a Camino with you. We'll get lost.

Danny

What I do now is I always have the app with me, and I'm checking every half hour if I'm still on the track. People say, I don't use an app. I only use the booklet. I say, good luck. I don't want to do any extra kilometers.

Rob

A very simple mapping app on my phone. A little plug for Gronze. I do love Gronze.

Danny

Me too. I use that.

Rob

It's dead easy to use. Every time I come to a junction, if I don't see a sign, I just pull it out and have a quick look. But not a four-kilometer section.

Danny

Me too, junctions. But also when I get confident, I check. Because last time, I was confident I was on the right track. Wrong confidence.

Rob

Some weird reverse psychology going on here. I'm confident, so I must be wrong.

Danny

Exactly. I check every half hour. It becomes a habit. Last year, I actually had a small backpack in front of my chest with my power bank in it. I had my phone in a certain way that I could track it all the time.

Rob

On the more remote routes, you've got to have a map.

Danny

Oh, sorry. Just a second.

Okay, I've resumed the recording. This is a recording with hurdles because now somebody delivered a package. Normally, they just put it down, but the guy kept screaming.

Rob

Kept on screaming ever louder. This is what happens when you get two old guys talking about the Camino. The only good thing here is we're not sitting at the same table with a glass of red wine because this would go on for hours.

Danny

That's true. I think we covered a lot. Is there something you really want to say to your fellow pilgrims, or pilgrims-to-be, before we close this episode?

Rob

Wow. There are probably a few things. One, I think I've mentioned, is go with no expectation about what's going to happen. There's that mantra, walk with an open heart and an open mind. Do that. Don't be quick to judge others. That's very important.

I don't think you have to have a goal to go and walk the Camino, but maybe ask yourself why you're drawn to walk it. Is it a spiritual journey? Are you a Catholic, and it's a religious journey? Is it for some other reason? I think it's worth asking yourself that question. Not whether you should go or not, but kind of what you might want to get out of it, which kind of contradicts the expectation thing. I think it helps to know why you're drawn to it.

Danny

You say, ask yourself the question why. Did you get an answer on why?

Rob

Yeah.

Danny

Remember, because we talked about that last week.

Rob

On my first Camino, I started out seeking answers. Is that the one you're talking about?

Danny

Yeah.

Rob

It took me a week to find out what the question was, and it was, what do you want out of life? Then I think after about three weeks, I got the answer, and it was happiness. Keep the family happy, keep my clients at work happy. Happiness is probably the most important.

Danny

Happiness. Okay. That was your question. That's one of the difficult things I noticed. When I walked the first time, it was just because my life was a mess. I just wanted to walk, and I didn't get an answer. The other three times I walked, four times in total, I never knew what the question was.

But now we ended up living here on the Camino. Now I know that there was no question. It was a road being mapped out for me to end up here in this place, to do what I do now. All the time, there was no question. But I can also say that every time I walked, I came out of the Camino with more insights into something.

Rob

This is going to sound terribly crass, but I think the Camino makes you a better person.

Danny

I think so, too.

Rob

You learn to be more forgiving. You learn things like, you're not worried to ask for help. You're not too reserved because everybody helps each other along the Camino. You learn that it's okay to ask for help. You're not belittling yourself. To help other people, not to judge people. I think it just makes you a better person all around.

To the earlier point, think about why you're walking a Camino, and maybe it can help having an objective. You don't need to have a question that needs to be answered. You don't need an objective. It can be purely that you just feel you need space. Maybe it's to overcome grief, a relationship ending, anything. That walking meditation of a Camino. That's why I say to people that it's not hiking for me. It's a walking meditation. It's the cure for a lot of things.

Danny

I agree. Man, what wise words we're speaking as two old men.

Rob

We've been around too long. Seen too much.

Danny

I really enjoyed our very bumpy recording.

Rob

Power outage, screaming delivery.

Danny

Screaming delivery guy here downstairs. Man, this was quite a challenge to get recorded, but I really loved this talk. If you walk next year, I will follow you anyway, but I will repost it also because I think this is very important. Thank you so much for your time.

Rob

I'm not here to plug anything, but there's a YouTube channel. There's a blog. I don't post on Facebook much, but I'll share some stuff with you.

Danny

More people have blogs, and people wrote a book. I put the links in the show notes, so I can do that also.

Rob

I'll send you the blog link.

Danny

Really good. For me, I am a strong believer now that the world can use a little bit more Camino. That's why I spend all this time as a volunteer recording, processing, creating. I'm not paid for it at all. Nothing.

Rob

That's the reason I run a YouTube channel, to be honest, because I think there's some stuff I can share that might help people on their first Camino. It's not a commercial channel. It's just because I love talking about the Camino, sharing tips.

Danny

Sharing back.

Rob

It seems to help people.

Danny

Please send me the link. It will be in the show notes. I also want to do a call to action for the listeners. It is really great when you listen, and I hope you spread it in your environment, your friends. It could perhaps give people some idea of what the Camino is. I hear a lot of people say, I walked the Camino, and friends ask what the Camino is. I don't know how to tell it. When they listen to this podcast, perhaps they get an idea.

But not only that, this podcast only works when you actively participate. Hit the Share Your Story button, and then I interview you also. The stories are all amazing. Don't think that your story is not important. Every story is important. I really hope we can spread the Camino a little bit more in the world.

Rob, thank you very much for your time and your patience with this. I loved this whole talk and discussion with each other.

Rob

Thanks, Danny. People who know me know that I do not need to have my arm twisted to talk about the Camino. I'm talking about it all day long.

Danny

I know. As we all know. Same with me. Okay, thank you very much. Bye.

Rob

Good talking to you. Thank you. Thanks for listening, folks, if anybody was listening.

Whether you are walking the Camino right now, or preparing for it, or perhaps you are back home, and maybe even suffering from PCS, the Post Camino Syndrome.

I hope that this podcast inspires you. And if so, do NOT keep it to yourself.

SHARE IT!

When you share this podcast, you ACTIVELY help spread the skill of Self-Reflection.

Every person who learns the skill of Self-Reflection begins to see people differently.

You may still question WHAT someone DOES.

But the judgment about their INTENTION starts to disappear. And you enter the realm of non-judgement.

And non-judgment is experienced as unconditional love.

That is how REAL change begins.

With you.
Then the people around you.
Your city.
Your province.
Your country.
Your continent.
And eventually,
the world.

That is why ACTIVELY spreading the skill of Self-Reflection, like an unstoppable virus, is SO important.

So please, do NOT just listen, but ACT on this call, and share it with as MANY people and on as MANY platforms as you can, TODAY.

For new episodes, go to www.innercaminohouse.com

Select the Podcast page in the menu. There, you can subscribe to the podcast notifications.

You will ALSO find the link in the show notes.

Thank you for listening, and Buen Camino.