Episode 16 - Lydia from Maine and Christian from Norway - She Survived Cancer. He Left the Hospital. They Walked Together.

Danny

Hello, fellow pilgrims and family, Camino family. I just, we start again here with a new podcast, and now I'm interviewing two people, an, a lady from America, Lydia and Christian, who's living in Norway, and, Lydia is the aunt of Christian. So I'm very happy, to see you again because we met each other in the Inner Camino House, and we had some nice interesting talks. And I'm very happy that you actually decided to participate in the podcast because so the podcast will, yeah, start to serve its purpose. Okay that's, I want to ask, Lydia and Christian yeah, to tell something about yourself and introduce yourself to your family You wanna go ahead, Lydia, and introduce yourself first?

Lydia

Sure. Hi, Danny. It's so wonderful to be here. I'm really honored to be on the podcast. I love listening to it, and I agree with you that the Camino goes a long way to boost our spirits. So it's special for me to be here today. I live in Maine, which is the northernmost state in the US, and I'm lucky enough to have relatives in Norway. My brother married a Norwegian, so my nieces and nephew are Norwegian. And this spring, we ended up hiking together. I have two kids of my own, and I'm a counselor and a teacher and a wilderness instructor and also a cancer survivor. So that's me.

Danny

Okay. So okay. Christian.

Christian

Yeah. So I'm Christian. I'm from Norway. I'm twenty one years old, one of the younger pilgrims. Probably one of the youngest ones who's ever been on this podcast. I don't know. But, it's super fun to be here. If you didn't understand Lydia is my aunt, and she's the one who both inspired and told me about the Camino for the first time. I didn't even know it existed before Lydia told me about it. Yeah. And I'm living in the city of, in Norway and doing the psychologist program. Just started that one, and I'm to be on a podcast.

Danny

Oh, so we have some things in common because I started I studied applied psychology, neuroscience, and quantum physics all related to human behavior. So.

Christian

Exactly. Some matches there. I also studied the before data engineering, before starting to study psychology. So I have that in common as well.

Danny

Yeah. Exactly. Because I have a long forty year IT background also. Really interesting. Hey. And, Lydia, you said you're counseling, or what does that mean? What is that?

Lydia

I'm a therapist, and part time, I see clients. I used to be a school leader, but after I got cancer, I really had to make some difficult choices. And I also love to travel. So in a way, because I survived I've been living out some of my bucket list, and going to the Camino was one of the first things I did when I got a clear scan for the very first time. And yeah, my cancer journey was quite I actually had cancer four times, so, I was quite low when I finally emerged, and it wasn't clear if I would survive. And when I did, I decided I would really live every day as fully as I could. And the first place that I went was the Camino.

Danny

Yeah. With your nephew.

Lydia

Well, the first time I went alone.

Danny

Okay.

Lydia

I was in a very low place. I had, survived cancer once, and then three months later, I was diagnosed with an unrelated second cancer, which took a year of treatments and then a third cancer about three months after that. So I felt like I'd been knocked down quite a few times. And then, but then on my last cancer, I was actually trying to go and pick up my very final prescription and still trying to stay strong, and I was still working, but my foot was run over by a car. And I was in a lot of pain. And I felt, at that time, quite depressed. And Yeah. I had been dreaming for many months in the hospital. It was through the pandemic that I had cancer. So it was really a very humbling experience, very isolating but I did have kind of a magic window into the kindness of other humans because there were these doctors and nurses and hospital workers showing up to take care of me when their whole lives were at risk.

And it really changed me to be in the hospital at that time and to see the care and the kindness and the commitment, of these caregivers. And but when my foot was injured, I was really devastated because walking had been the one thing that helped me to cope even if I was just walking around the hospital corridors. Yeah. And I couldn't walk for a while. And I finally, got a surgeon who said, well, there's nothing wrong with your foot. Some people just have pain. And so I went home from that appointment, and I made a ticket to the Camino one way ticket. And that is why it became such a powerful experience for me because it was the first time after cancer and really believing that I was, maybe my journey was coming to an end that I connected with people again. And I actually, one of the first people I met was a nurse who had been working through COVID in Spain because it was twenty twenty two when I first made my camino.

And she was walking to heal from watching many of her patients die, and it was very inspiring to be there and, begin to feel connected to other people again. So Yeah.

Danny

So that was twenty twenty two then?

Lydia

Yes. Yeah.

Danny

Yeah So this year, you both walked together And you know, this podcast is all about the inner camino, how I call this, and not the outer camino. And the outer camino is your backpack, your blisters, your planning, how you book, the traveling, all that kind of stuff. But this is really about the things happening inside of you, like magical moments happening on the Camino. I, magical places. There are some places I get really overwhelmed and don't know what's going on there. Things like Camino provides. I changed that sentence a little bit into the Camino provides what you need and not per se what you want. And listen to podcast number eleven with Marissa as she was praying to God, please, I'm so lonely and alone. I want to be together. And she got a kidney stone. So this is not what you want. But because of that, she received exactly what she was longing for, and it was the love and being together is an insane story.

Last year, by the way, she was really known on the Camino as the lady with the kidney stone. So, was glad to interview her. But these type of moments, you know, and also things like insights that you walk and suddenly something comes clear where you're planning on for years or pains you're dragging along for a long time and you can leave it behind. And what also happens is that you are hoping to leave pain behind, but it stick just a little bit longer also after the Camino that's also there. You know, that kind of stories. So, Christian and, Lydia, what do you want to share with your Camino family?

Christian

I hear the question, and it's, of course, the inner Camino is probably the most important part. But I think for our Camino, the background of how we ended up there is a really important part, I'd say. I should probably start by telling a little bit about the year before. Let's say that was a important part of both why we ended up the Camino and why the Camino was a really important experience for us.

Danny

Yeah. And, also, that's good that you mentioned that because the Camino doesn't start when you arrive here. The Camino starts at the moment that you hear from somebody that there is something like the Camino That's the starting point, actually. Yeah. I see that you mentioned that. Yep.

Christian

Oh, yeah. So maybe we should start the story. When I was visiting Lydia and the rest of the American family, just one year ago now. And we were having a good time, and everything was good in my life. And I really was looking forward to continuing my studies in the in IT as I was mentioning a little bit earlier And I came back to Norway after you know, after that, I faced let's say, a breakdown in many relationships in my life, both in my and a romantic relationship went away at the same time So yeah, I think we should probably start the story of this story, about the year before Now a year ago, in the summer, I was visiting Lydia and the rest of my American family in the US, and we were all just having a good time, and everything was normal. And I was a happy person just looking forward to getting back to Norway and continuing my studies in data engineering and, going about my daily life really.

Like, I had no intuitions about what was going to unfold during the rest of that year but when I got back to Norway, I faced the breakdown in multiple relationships in my life and both romantic relationships, but, a lot of the friends I was living with also moved away from the city where I was living. And for me, I didn't understand how this would impact me. So when I came back to Norway and all this happened I didn't really in the start, I didn't really think too much about it Yeah Sorry. Can we pause for a moment? I've I lost my train of thought Yeah. So, yeah, I just went about my daily life like you usually would and by my own standards, of how life should be, I was doing pretty well. I'd say I was working out, playing soccer, which I love doing. I got good grades in school, and I was studying. And for me, life seemed like it was how it should be, and I was happy with that.

But what I don't think what I think I didn't realize was the impact this relationship breakdowns would have in my life and it really just got worse and worse over time. And you know, I started getting quite low mood and depression Mhmm. And The result of that was, that I didn't even I wouldn't even be able to do things that I thought were really important, like being able to work out, being able to go to school, getting good grades, doing all of that things that to a person looking outward in the world like everything that people can see from the outside, all of those important things were they were still in place in my life after those relationship breakdowns. But after a while, with me not really realizing how important they were in my life the my inner state deteriorated emotionally to the point where I couldn't even be able to function with those things that I used to do, and I thought were really important in my life.

So, you know, I had to drop out and, from my studies, and I didn't work out anymore. I didn't do things that I really loved, and that was the start of a real big depressive episode for me And Lydia called me after I started getting help for that. Lydia called me almost every day, on my phone, which is a really important part of that story.

Lydia

Yeah. Christian was so low, and, I was really worried about him because I knew that he I knew that place of feeling like you just can't go on anymore. And he was in the hospital, and, I also knew that felt like to be trapped in the hospital while the rest of life is going on without you. Right. And I know that, some days, Christian, you were so low that I didn't know if it made a difference to call, but I just remembered that it did make a difference when people reached out to me even when I was in the hospital for sometimes ten days with no visitors because it was COVID. Yeah.

Danny

So and how long was that ago that you were in the hospital from now?

Christian

That's almost, it's almost a year ago now. So that would be the fall of twenty twenty five. And I was in there until November of twenty twenty five. So Yeah. Yep. It wasn't until the winter, that my life started to change for the better again so I got out of the hospital and everything like that, all that. And I and I had to decide what should I do with my life now. It's I've dropped out of my studies. I'm I certainly wasn't going back to the exact same place that I, which had sent me into the depressive episode. So I really felt that I needed to do something completely new. And yeah, this is a.

Lydia

I had planted that seed, Christian, because I and sometimes when you were so low, I would say, look. If you can just hang on and get through, it is gonna get better and know that it will. And even if it doesn't, the two of us can hike the Camino together because that's one place where you know that you matter and that you just put one foot in front of the next, and we can talk about what's next in your life. And I don't know if you believe me or knew what the Camino was, but that was a seed that I planted for us.

Christian

Yeah. Like a general thing when you are in the state, like I was in, I don't think you're not really thinking rationally, and I don't know if I ever believe that things would be as good as us getting back on the Camino and having a great time like we later on with. So Yeah.

Danny

Silly is that there because when I walked my first Camino, my whole life was in shatters. So if you listen to one of the podcast episodes, you most likely are already told. So, I don't want to tell that again. But, anyway, our whole life was in shatters, divorce job loss everything was gone, and then you just think I walked a Camino. You know? It was like that. I did I walked together with my son. He was thirteen then. And I was really looking forward to do that together with him. But for the rest, I had no expectations. And certainly not that it could have an effect on my life. It did because now we met each other here in the Camino Frances, in Viloria de Rioja. So it made some impact, but I didn't expect anything of it. Nothing And to be honest I also thought many people were so enthusiastic about it that I thought,.

Lydia

Yeah. I was probably one of those Camino boosters, just enthusiastic because I had it had been such a powerful experience for me even though I walked it the first time in a lot of pain. But the second time, I took my daughter back, Danny, and we hiked the Camino, Portuguese together. And that was really transformative for us, and that was just, only a year ago. The year before, I did it this time with Christian. And it was transformative because when I got sick with cancer, she was thirteen, and it really impacted our relationship because I wasn't able to be there for her. And both of us worried that she would have to go on without me, and it was so devastating. It was hardly able to talk about that. Yeah. And so the way she would phrase it is that we're we were making up for lost time to spend all that time together, and I think it was really very meaningful moment when she and I came into the cathedral, and we stood there holding hands and looking up at those twin spires together.

And I it was like, I didn't think that I would ever have that moment because I was so close to dying from cancer. And so, really, since that time, every moment has been a bonus moment. So I was very eager to share that experience with Christian if he wanted to do it. And I think, Christian, you were trying to figure out what you were gonna do with your life once you came out of the hospital.

Christian

Yeah. I was then. And the spring of this year is also an important part of the study. So my father, which is Lydia's brother, he met my mother at a place called or at, yeah, a school called the Folk High School in Norway. And I did I didn't go to the same one that he did, but I went to another one. And the Folk High School is a school where, Norwegian teenagers and a little bit older go to take a gap year really just focus on a passion or an interest.

Danny

Okay. Thank you.

Christian

It's not educational in the academic sense, but very much in the social and, like, passion sense.

Danny

Oh, that's good. Develop yourself.

Christian

Yeah. So after that winter or during that winter, I decided to go to one of those for, the rest of, the school year, the last semester. So I went there, and I played soccer for for a half a year. But that wasn't the really the important part. The most important part was the things I gained socially at the place like that. I mean, I came out of a period of my life where I didn't realize the values of the relationships in my life. So going to a place like that with a completely new perspective on how to maintain your relationships and really appreciate them and feel how important they are to you. I'm I made a lot of really good friends. And my mental health went from the worst that I can really imagine to the best that I could imagine in the span of three months. So this was already before the Camino. So the year had really been turned on, let's say.

Danny

It's like a roller coaster. It goes up and down and up Yeah.

Christian

From one extreme to the other.

Danny

And in the meantime, Lydia, walked in the Caminos. And I don't know how it is with you, Lydia, but if somebody asked me about the Camino, you my wife always says, you put in one quarter, and then you get, words back for a thousand euros. You know? So you cannot stop rambling about it. Did she also did it to you, Christian, that she couldn't keep stop talking about the Camino? And if that was the case, what how was that for you as a victim of the Camino enthusiastic Yeah.

Christian

My aunt, I mean, if you wanted her to, you could make her talk for hours. On and really, it doesn't really matter what the subject is. She but yeah, I was definitely, let's say, victim to the Camino propaganda. And, I mean, I it's not before it's not it isn't before after walking it, you actually understand why people are so insisting on that you should do it. And yeah. But I'm really happy that Lydia really wanted us to do it because that's what happened later that spring. I mean, we were I usually go to the United States almost every year to visit my entire family there, but it wasn't gonna happen this year. So that's why Lydia said, well, if we're gonna see each other at all this summer, then we should see each other for a week at the Camino.

Danny

Yep So when did you, start walking the Camino? From where and how long.

Lydia

Well, the story about where we met, once I had hooked him in Yeah. Guilty as charged about the Camino propaganda. But as people who are listening know, that it has a way of kind of working its magic, and I trusted that. And, when I was injured and walking, there was one week that I had to pause and had not been able to complete, and that was the section from Logroño to Burgos. Mhmm. And, so there was this piece of the Camino Frances that I hadn't been able to do. Yeah. So I proposed that maybe we go together to Logroño, and that was an easy place for Christian and his sister who is, going to join us, and my daughter. We all convened in Logroño one night, and our plan was to walk to Burgos. And my, invitation and if Christian had time was to just keep walking, to the end for him. So that's where we met, and it was like going back to pick up a piece that I had lost.

So I didn't and I'm so grateful that we did that section. Yeah.

Danny

So and so you flew in there. When was then?

Lydia

Yeah. We flew in May twenty fourth. And Yeah. You know, Christian mentioned his father. His name was Sam, and he was my younger brother, and we were adventure buddies growing up. Yeah. We were we grew up, you know, just before the Internet, before video games, and we spend all of our time outside in nature. And growing up in Maine, there's a lot of nature. And, he actually passed away, when Christian was only four. So No. It was very powerful for me to stay connected to his children. And one thing that happened, when as soon as we started walking, you know, Christian looks so much like my brother did. And, it's, like, uncanny how much they look alike. But watching them walk ahead of me, I really felt, you know, even from the first moment that we set out that it was like his spirit was with us and that he was along for the ride. And, you know, being able to, you know, call Christian every day in a hospital, something about that was I just knew that, you know, my brother wasn't here to be able to call and support him, and it was something that I could, do for my brother, but also for me because after cancer, relationships became even more important.

I've always been a relationship person, but getting to spend time with my niece and nephew, I mean, it's something you always think about doing, but who actually gets to spend a week with their niece and nephew in their Yeah. Early twenties. And so it was kind of a dream come true from the very first day for me Yeah.

Danny

And how was it for you, Christian.

Christian

I came to the Camino with very little prior knowledge of what the Camino was, except knowing that it was really good and that I should walk it like, I was going on vacation was the, like, real.

Danny

Oh, yeah. Big mistake.

Christian

Yeah. Big mistake.

Danny

Yeah. I met some people, William from Boston is also on the podcast. He was also on vacation, but that changed somehow somewhere completely. So you also went on vacation.

Christian

Yeah. Lydia talked a little bit about it earlier She said that her recommendation was just to do as much as I could to try to get to the end. And, you know that was what I decided to do after a couple of days on the Camino was that my schedule was clear for the next eleven days after we had planned to finish me and Lydia together. So I decided to use those eleven days to just skip ahead as far as I needed and then do the rest of the Camino by myself. I mean walking with Lydia and also two other family members who were there. It's an experience walking together with people you love, and it was really great, which was one part of why I decided to go on further. But another part was that I saw that there was a lot of people doing it alone, and I was excited to see what would happen if I just did it alone. I mean, I'd say another component to that would be that I don't think I know I'm only twenty years old, but twenty one years old, but I was feeling that I wasn't really a person who enjoyed my own company that much, being completely alone and happy with just myself before the events that had happened the year before.

But after that, I entered things in my life with a new mindset. So I really looked at it like an opportunity to see what would happen if I could be happy just being completely alone for some days and just walking.

Lydia

The first thing that happened to us in Logroño was we were walking out. It was a long stretch, and we realized that we hadn't really gotten enough water. So we turned around and, you know, we started walking backwards past all the pilgrims in the morning that were headed out because we needed to get some water. We went back to a bakery and she gave us water. And I don't think we changed any money yet, so we only had, like, a few cents. And she gave us a bunch of water, for free, and then she just went behind the counter and she brought out a giant loaf of bread and she handed it over to us. That was my first encounter of The Camino.

Danny

The Camino provides Yeah. The sentence. Yeah.

Lydia

So we strapped the bread to our backpack, and it became our lunch. And that was the beginning of a ritual of getting bread and some groceries and having a picnic somewhere on the Camino for a bunch of days.

Danny

Yeah. I encountered that also last year in I arrived in Logroño, and one of the stitches of my left shoe started to get loose. It was still okay, but I knew it doesn't hold the other seven hundred kilometers. So I found a shoe repair shop and, of course, he saw that I was in Pilgrim. And he repaired my shoe, and, of course, I wanted to pay. No way. This was no discussion that was on them. And that support from the Spanish people, and I also encountered that here in the village. The Spanish people, not all, but many, they carry the Camino in their heart and really cherish it and supports it in a long way. Not all because not all people, also the Spanish don't actually totally realize what the camino means, But many do, and they give you that unconditional support. And this is really not so much available in anymore in other parts of the world.

Lydia

Yeah. I've it there's a generosity of spirit that just I don't know if there's any other place in the world like it. I've traveled many places in my life. I've been very fortunate, sometimes leading expeditions in different countries. But I don't when people ask me about why I returned to the Camino, I don't think I've ever been anywhere with so many people from so many different countries. And, you know, we were hiking with, Norwegian flags and American flags, and many people stopped us and introduced themselves and said where they were from. And I don't think there's any place in the world like it where people are walking partly because they're carrying maybe a personal burden or a heavy load, and there's a vulnerability and openness to talk about what's real, you know, to really talk about what's really going on. The first I really knew about that openness, and I wasn't sure.

I really wanted my younger, you know, family to experience it, but you can't force things. And the first day, we had that wonderful experience of being given a loaf of bread. And I think later that day, we walked past we were about to come into a little town, maybe Navarette, I think. And there was a man in a wheelchair, you know, where they sometimes, people will sometimes put out a stamp. You know, that you can he had no legs. He was missing his legs and one arm and only had a few fingers on his other arm. And I gave him a donation, what I had, and he gave me, like, a sweet cake. And then he stopped my with his hand, one good hand, he reached out and he pointed to this set of earrings, and he wanted me to take one. And I just walked away, and I my tears were just streaming down my face. I just I was so overcome that somebody who has so little, you know, was that generous.

And it brings tears to my eyes now just to think about because, you know, I've been through a lot. I've lost, over twelve body parts and had fourteen surgeries, and I know what it's like to miss body parts. You know? Yeah. And also to be in pain still walking. It's better, but I still have pain all the time. And I just felt very overwhelmed, really overwhelmed by his ability to keep going. And I think that Camino is the place where really the deepest message for me is keep going. You know? Just keep going because there is some hidden beauty around the corner. And I desperately wanted my nephew and niece to experience that for themselves, you know, because, of course, you can talk about it, but like Christian said, you can't know about it until you experience it.

Danny

Yeah. That's true. Yep.

Lydia

When do you think is the first time that you started to experience it, Christian? Was it at Danny's house?

Christian

The what exactly? Like, the Camino feeling or what?

Lydia

Yeah. Just the, like, the openness of the people and the sense connection.

Christian

I mean this is a little bit, relating to what I was talking about earlier You know, walking together as a group like we did this, is very it's a really great experience, but I felt like when I started to do things, alone, that was when I really started to just approach random people and talk to them and that sort of openness. And the first time that actually happened was at the Camino house, your house, Danny, and I just sat down with this girl. She looked about my age being twenty one on the Camino, at least before getting to Santiago, I had this rule in my head that if a person looks like there were less than thirty, I would go up and talk to them no matter what There aren't that many. So it's doable before that.

Danny

Much more now in July and August.

Christian

Oh, Yeah. But at least not when I was Yeah.

Danny

That your period is not. It's true Yeah.

Christian

But, anyway, I just yeah. At that house, I just started talk sitting down and talking to this girl, and she was just so happy that somebody wanted to talk to her for no other reason than her being there. And, yeah, I mean, after that, I started approaching a lot of people. And, I mean, this should be some advice to anyone that's afraid of approaching people on the Camino to see if they're open to talking or not. I didn't get rejected a single time from talking to anyone ever on the Camino. So I mean, it's a great place if you wanna experience the openness of other people.

Danny

Mhmm. That's interesting that you say that and you give the tip. You know, you met me in the Inner Camino House and you too, Lydia, and then I can talk a lot and be very open and going forward to people. But when I walk the Camino on my own then and, I see people on a table, I still need to jump over a small hurdle to go to them. Yeah. Because then I still there's still a little fear that they don't like it that I approach. You know? But if Inner Camino House, it's different. People come in. Yeah. And yeah. So there is no rejection because they come in. So immediately, I can be totally open. But if you walking and you see a cafeteria or whatever and then you see the people sitting there, I always feel anxiousness. Always. Yeah. And still, then I always need to push myself over a small hurdle to say that, is it okay to sit, if it's okay to join?

And they always say yes. Sometimes not. Sometimes a person says, no. I want to be in my own, which is then also fine because it is not a judgment towards me. But, yeah, I think that's a very good tip, Christian, to do that because I think many people have that problem. And after four Caminos and talking with, I think, in the meanwhile, three and a half thousand pilgrims here Inner Camino House, and it will be hitting, I think, around seven thousand this year, perhaps even more. And next year, I want to walk from Logroño to Leon and I know that I will face that fear again. I know.

Lydia

Well, by the time we got to your place, Danny, which we had no idea existed, because I think you were only open two point five weeks when we discovered you. Yeah. The four of us were pretty hangry, which I don't know if you have that expression, but we had walked many towns with no breakfast. We each thought that there was this kind of magical breakfast place that had been on the map, but we must have walked by it. So we were also feeling a little frustrated, like, okay. Now we're it was getting very hot. And then we walk into the tiny town where you are, and there's a little sign. It and it's not even clear. You know? Is it a breakfast place, or is it just like a, like a museum? But we were pretty desperate. Easy to do. So I think you came out and maybe you waved us in. And, you know, within minutes, you had described what your mission, your purpose was to make your home our home.

And there was, Christian, do you remember? There was a Irish couple there.

Christian

Oh, yeah.

Lydia

She said this is a wee slice of heaven. So we just believed her. We went in and, you know, we all started talking, and I think you played us a song and the lyrics that you wrote. And, we found out we had a lot in common, and immediately, I noticed your reflection cards. And, I felt kind of like my hopes had been answered that I knew that we were all experiencing such a bounty of food and company and welcome. I mean, really above and beyond anything I've experienced. It was such a turning point, I think, for me because I felt that all of us could really feel the magic of the Camino as you described to us what it was all about. And we really felt it at home, all of us.

Danny

Oh, that's awesome So it humbles me, to be honest, to hear this. And, yeah.

Lydia

Well, I think the, so we were while Christian was talking to somebody who I think she was walking the Camino backwards.

Christian

Yeah. No. She was doing something absolutely crazy. She was she had gone from the city of, Porto, done the Camino Portuguese first then stopped, in Santiago, of course, and then continued the Camino Frances the opposite way. But not only that, she was going the entire way home to Munich in Germany. So I don't know. So I mean, we met in like, late May, I think. And she I don't know if she just made it back She might still walk.

Danny

Yeah. I even you say strange things. I saw a guy. You mean she was walking the opposite way, moving back? He was still there. But I saw a man also walking back the opposite way, but really walking backwards.

Lydia

Oh, wow.

Danny

Yeah. And that was my first Camino. And I had the same idea. I thought why do you want to do that? Yeah. Because that's quite dangerous as well. So but I've no clue why he did it. But I because he passed, and this was my first Camino, and I really didn't understand anything about it. And I also see people, jogging. They run the whole Camino. So the phrase everybody walks his own Camino is so true. It's also like Yeah. People on bikes. Next year, most likely, I'm thinking about testing, transferring my back backpack, which I actually don't want to do because I have a lot of opinions in my head that I should, could do it and all that kind of stuff. But I don't know. There's a lot of things going on in my brain about next year, how I should do it and what I feel, how perhaps I must do it. Anyway, yeah, the Camino is really a strange place.

Lydia

I think that's partly why it works, though, because, you know, real connection comes from no agenda and no judgment. And I really like that everyone can do their own camino because, you know, I had to miss that first section that first time I walked it. And in a way, I'm really grateful that I could come back and do it. And I didn't face any judgment. I just couldn't do it then, but it was a invitation to come back. And the nothing is wasted was what was written on the reflection card while I was eating the beautiful breakfast that you had, put out for us. And it really got me thinking that morning that even experiences that we wouldn't choose contribute to the unfolding of our consciousness. I think that was what was on the card that you had there. And I kind of loved that missing our dream cafe that we were excited about. I think it said it had the best smoothies, and we were all dreaming about that.

And then it led to us finding a better one. And, really, that was kind of the metaphor for our journey that my difficult journey through cancer ultimately was the driver of some adventure and really deep connections with my family. And that depression for Christian, you know, ended up really having a role in informing him when something was out of balance, you know, the value of relationships. And also that you switched majors, Christian, which seems like a reflection of I mean, psychology is all about relationships and deepening them and understanding them. And, you know, it really you ended up pivoting quite a bit, to a job that really values relationships.

Christian

Yeah. I mean, for me, as you say, everyone walks their own Camino, and it seems to be a very common thing that people bear really heavy, dark and burdens from their past when talking about why they do the Camino, not everybody, but a lot of people do.

Danny

Yeah. Lots a lot of people take very heavy loads with them. Yeah. Physically with a big backpack, but also mentally.

Christian

Yeah. That's funny that you say that because for me, I had, you know, I at least felt I was really grateful that I had got out of the state that I was previously in. And for me, I was just thinking that the Camino going on the Camino, partly by myself also was more of a celebration thing really for me, even though I talked about the heavy things that had happened.

Danny

The celebration in which sense?

Christian

Yeah. Because in which way, as I said, I was had those heavy things that are the heavy period that had come to an end and been replaced by joy and love. Really happy And I was just so grateful. And also what I mentioned earlier with me being feeling comfortable that I could go on alone feeling happy about just being by myself alone and testing that for me, it was really an exciting and really happy experience Yeah.

Danny

So, from which point on the Camino did you start walking alone?

Christian

Yeah. So as the original plan was, we walked from Logroño to Burgos, and that's where the rest of my family members, went back home And then I was completely alone. So I had to figure out how far I had to skip ahead. I had to skip I had eleven days left from Burgos to get to Santiago. So I Yeah. I took the train from, to Leon, which means I had to do about thirty kilometers today from, Leon. And Yeah. So from first of the of June to the eleventh of June, I walked the rest of the Camino a little.

Danny

So and how was that for you? And perhaps even more important do you feel that last part had an impact on you and didn't change you, perhaps Yeah.

Christian

So, yeah, I mean I think I should start with going back to what I said being completely happy alone But then I also had the strategy of being very impulsive, kind of, and doing whatever my intuition told me to do at every moment. So what happened was that I started approaching people all the time. And those things kind of came in conflict because suddenly, I got to know so many fellow pilgrims at the same time that I was never alone anymore. So my goal of being alone was in.

Danny

Not there.

Christian

With me.

Danny

Not working. People all the time.

Christian

I don't think I was with people the entire day. It kind of failed in that way. I mean, I was alone in the sense that I didn't really I didn't know this. These people weren't people that I knew from before. And they, the people might actually change from day to day, but I was always talking to people.

Danny

Yeah. So, actually and that's, you know, that's so sad you experienced there that, actually when we live without expectation, meaning we don't have any judgments because of that, because an expectation always causes judgment. If you have an expectation that somebody should be kind to you, then you can be disappointed or be happy that they are kind So if you don't have expectations, then the meeting of other peoples is so much easier because then you are open. And I call this then you are in the space of nonjudgment. And it's just so sad because I recently heard again from somebody that living in an urban area, you see that there are quite a lot. It's that you can live together in a in one street with people for years and years, really a lot of years, forty years, four decades, and never know who your neighbor is. Yeah. So sad. And then, you know, I live here now in Viloria de Rioja and it's a village of twenty five people.

And in the weekend, the people from the city come here. It is busier. And then, yeah, my neighbor, lady, she, had this last week, her fiftieth birthday wedding day. Fifty years when, married. So we were invited, and we are there with the family, and there's so much love and joy, the joy of being together, and also, being together in a not expecting way. Because I don't know how it is in America or in Norway, but I know in the Netherlands and in Germany where I both lived you've been you are together, but there is always something under the surface active. And that what is under the surface is active is actually separating Yeah. And here, I've sensed so in so many occasions, but also as a pilgrim, that you meet each other and it is much more that we are happy with life and together. Oh, this sounds so cheesy what I'm saying now. But, anyway, that's how I experience it.

Is more celebrating life, although there is not so much. I have not so much in my backpack, and the Spanish people don't earn so much money. So they are not between, brackets wealthy. And I dare to say they are much more wealthy than the people with a lot of money on the bank and a big income like I had in the Netherlands. So yeah. So you then you encounter that you are never alone, but not knowing that, you have connection Yeah. Is that what you experienced?

Christian

Yeah. Definitely. I made I'd say made real friends there Yeah. From Sweden, from Netherlands from United States, from Spain from Germany. Yeah. It's one of the reasons I would recommend young people coming from a country like Norway, like me, like a privileged country with a very stiff social code, I'd say, in the day to day life You get to be in a place where we're connecting is the goal And, you know, talking to people that you just meet, you know, would be considered, like, out of line in a country like Norway, almost, it's a very stiff social code. And as you mentioned you know people from different backgrounds, both like economically and socially is enriching for us, especially for someone like me coming from a society like Norway, where everybody is doing, I mean, life crisis have happens to everyone, but we do have it as good as we can, really.

We're one of the best countries to live in the world from, like, everything that can be mess measured in wealth and wealth and health.

Danny

Yeah. And also that's, it is wealth, health and I perceive also and I don't want a judgment, so don't take me wrong, but that's how I experience it, is that I like to live in a community, and I don't like to live in a box separated from other people, and the box we call home and that I perceive, when I live in very urban areas. Because in order to survive in these urban areas, you need to disconnect from a lot of people. Otherwise, you just cannot manage it. That's why small communities, it's much easier to open yourself too. Then with thousand people around me, if I do that, then, I don't know if my system can take that in. Yeah. So it is really interesting, to do. So and when you arrived in Santiago, what was happening with you there when you arrived there?

Christian

Yeah. So you know, after a day, or no, not today, almost a month of walking in or at least half a month of walking in total feet hurting and have made a lot of new connections. And yeah, I was, feeling really grateful for just being able to be there. I couldn't imagine have being in the grateful and happy states. I was in approaching Santiago just four months before, I don't think I could have thought that would even be possible. So it was it's kind of a miracle for me that I was able to be there. It was ending a chapter in my life and starting a new one. And to all the men and young men out there, I cried a lot from just when I saw, you know, the city of Santiago, really that day, I just, I didn't stop once during the last stretch. I was just, I was, I really wanted to get to Santiago. And when I could see the city, I just started crying, just being grateful and happy.

At the same time as you know, leave, kind of not, I really don't believe in the thought of leaving things behind really. It still sticks with you. I.

Danny

Okay. Especially at the as.

Christian

Well. I feel I still felt I brought it with me after that, but this was more like just ending the chapter of it. Yeah. I'd say we're starting a new one.

Lydia

I have a funny story about the last day because I thought Christian might need my help. Just wanted to see if the Camino provided, and he's convinced me, like, oh, it's okay. I'm, you know, I'm twenty one. I have a sleeping mat, and I can just if I can't get a hostel or a refugio, I just, like, lay down at the church. And I said, Okay. You can do that. But at the very end in Santiago, it's gonna be really big.

Christian

The reservation. The strategy of not booking anything ever and just going Yeah. So being young and being a man, I did the picking anything. Yep Yeah. So being a young, healthy male, I decided to do the strategy of just going with flow at every point of, my Camino going alone. So I as I previously said, just going with my intuition and doing every impulse I had, but also never booking anything. And not even ever knowing where the next meal was gonna come from. But Lydia warned me that Santiago would be really busy. So she said that she wanted to book the great, hostel she was at, the last time she was in Santiago. Yeah. She could tell that story.

Lydia

That's a funny story. I thought, well, okay. You can just now you really believe that the Camino provides, but I'm really gonna help you out by getting this last hostel so you can have a really nice, secure, fun time right near the square. And then I got a, you know, I'm waiting and hearing the updates each day because I was following along with his journey, and I got a call from this hostel in Colombia, the country. And they said, well, you didn't check-in, you know, to your hostel. And I had accidentally made the an hostel with the same name in Colombia, the country. So it was actually not useful. I thought it was very inexpensive. It was only about eleven dollars and the okay. Well, Camino is showing me that it's going to provide without my help. Yeah. And I think he got Christian got the very last bed.

Christian

I got the very last bed.

Lydia

Oh, you did?

Christian

Thankfully. Thankfully, I got through really early. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, just sitting in the square there for forty minutes, just taking it all in Just perfect peace, and then going to the hostel to discover, yeah, that I was able to get the last bed. That was really good.

Danny

Yeah. That's awesome. Hey When I walked last year and then you see from the hill the cathedral in the distance, you go down and you walk to the city, and there's a certain point, there is some traffic lights, and then you really go into the old inner city. And what I noticed myself last year, but also the other times, but especially last year, I was standing there at the traffic lights, and I found myself back walking ever slower And I actually didn't want it to end. And I also was happy to end it, but I didn't want to end it. How was it for you when you started to approach the cathedral.

Christian

Yeah. I mean, I met a lot of people along my journey, saying that things like let the Camino walk you and don't walk the Camino yourself. And I was, let's say, I was fortunate and unfortunate enough that I already had a second vacation booked after the Camino. So I was on a schedule.

Danny

Oh, okay.

Christian

Having to get to Santiago by eleventh of June. And looking back on it, I mean it's kind of you. You never know. I met so many people that I wouldn't have met if I just walked slowly and wasn't on a time schedule. And I just, I'm just kind of grateful that I was able to do it at all. But also then you never know where the most valuable experiences are going to come from in life. And it's kind of the same with the Camino, if you're fast, you're going slow. If you're open to it, valuable experience might happen no matter what. So that was kind of the philosophy I had when I had to go fast. That was my version of coping with not being able to let the Camino walk me and doing that.

Lydia

I mean, I think you can't really you know, goes back to nothing is wasted, Danny, because, you know, there's so many little moments that happen only because you're right in the moment being present to what happened. And we had so many funny moments like that where, you know, we found an abandoned teddy bear that a little girl had left and or we tried to buy shoes from a woman who was a little grumpy and a storekeeper because we our shoes broke and she kept telling us which pair we were allowed to buy and, you know, it became, like, a really funny story. And I was trying to track down my poles, my hiking poles the whole time and met so many people because they were helping me try to find my poles, which eventually I got on the last day of my hike. But I it made me think of this story, you know, this quote that I love by this wilderness author named Barry Lopez who says, the stories that people tell have a way of taking care of them.

And if stories come to you, care for them and learn to give them away when you need to because sometimes a person needs a story more than food to stay alive. And that's maybe how I think of the Camino. And you talked about when you're in a box in a home in an urban area, you don't have as many stories. You're in the box, but you have to step out of the box in order to start having things happen to you. Yeah. And it's like a reset for the nervous system. It helps you to just feel connected and see what's possible in a day and meet all the people maybe that you know, it's not random. It's the people that maybe are really touch you and see you. I think everybody really just wants to be seen and have a chance to tell their stories, especially when you've been through something really hard.

Danny

Yeah. And I think also that, I talked about it, I mentioned it before in other episodes, is that, we walk the Camino, it is much more that we live from a out of a space of nonexpectation, this is nonjudgment, and we connect so deeply very quickly And in daily life, there's so much noise that it is so difficult to do that. And, you get a lot of disappointment because, yeah, you still need it. Actually, Lydia, you made me curious about that card, and I paused the recording for a sec, and then I restart because I just want to find it So I was searching for the card, but, Lydia, you have the text in front of you. So perhaps you could you read it out, but not so quick. Very slow.

Lydia

The card that caught my attention that I looked at while I drank my coffee was nothing is wasted. Even the experiences that you would not choose again contribute to the unfolding of your consciousness.

Danny

Yeah. And that's so true. Because if I listen to your story with the cancer and the feet, you cannot imagine that it helps you and contribute to unfolding of your consciousness. It's the same like with the story of Marisa, and she was longing for love and connection, and she got a kidney stone. So and it's the same with me. If I look back at, my life to our many situations, which I really I love not to have needed to go through, but at the end, it made me the person who I am now. And so I'm very grateful that actually these all these shitty things also happened in my life. Yeah. Sounds man, this is really a cheesy episode. Hey.

Lydia

That's what really happened.

Danny

Yeah. Hey. And, Christian, how long are you back now from the Camino? How long is that more or less?

Christian

How long since I walked?

Danny

Yeah. It was Two months or something?

Christian

It's been wow. It's been two and a half months now.

Danny

Two. Yeah. So you have made some experience before you went on the actual walking the Camino because your Camino already started before. Then the walking itself where you discovered it How hard you do your best to be alone. The Camino gives you all the people that you're not alone. Yeah. And then you meet there, and then you have that room and all the stuff. So this is really a difficult question, to be honest. Yeah. And you don't need to answer it because perhaps you don't know yet, and perhaps you will never know. Let's see. Yeah. So do you have a feeling that being walking the Camino, the preparation, the whole story you just told us, that it has changed you, that it has an impact on you? Do you have any sense of that.

Christian

Yeah When looking back at it, I mean, for me, the entire story that I've told this podcast is was a really big character developing part of my life. And the Camino was let's say the Camino was the finale of that whole series of events. And when I got to the Camino I felt that during the time at the Folk High School, which I was at right before we went to the Camino I had done a lot of inner work on my experiences and, changed a lot in a few months. And when going the to the Camino, it was more sense It was more in the sense that I was trying to act out my new person in the world. And I was open to having new great changes come to me. But for me, that didn't really happen I if it is a lot of people that I talked to had the experience of going there and having the complete transformation. But for me looking back to all of the experiences I've had in my life the transformation up until that point in my life had already been completed.

And as I previously mentioned, the going on the Camino was both, you know, a celebration of being able to act out the new person that I that I'd say, does that answer the question?

Danny

Oh, yes Very good. Yeah. And for you, Lydia, how was that for you? Because you have walked now how many three caminos or even more?

Lydia

Well, I've walked three caminos in Portugal and Spain, but I also walked the Kumano Kodo in Japan to be a dual pilgrim. And, I hope to walk it again, and my dream would be to walk maybe with other survivors maybe survivors of cancer or other things, and to do, like, a walking and writing retreat because I have also turned to writing. And I have a chapter being published in January and a book that I'm working on that I hope to publish about my wilderness stories and my adventures and the way that built some resilience in me to go through the journey of cancer. So.

Christian

It's gonna be great. I read, like, first chapters. It's gonna be nice.

Lydia

Yeah. I also just feel so lucky to have a whole memory bank of stories that were I think we I laughed harder on the Camino and cried and felt all the feelings. It was just a really amazing time. And, actually, the way I got the idea for hiking it with my nephew and nieces on the Portuguese Camino, we were walking behind on the day into Santiago. We were surrounded by bagpipes, and then this whole group came in, like, you know, four or five hours before the end. And it was a group of cousins, and they were all—they were Spanish. There were, like, ten or eleven of them, and they were playing ukuleles, and they were all singing. And so I went up and I said, what you know, what is this group? And he said, oh, we're all related. We're all cousins and, you know, brothers and sisters. And once we became twenty, we all were going in different directions.

So we just picked one week every year to hike the Camino, and whoever can come joins. And then our parents meet us for lunch in the square, and it's just a really happy time. And that gave me the idea that it could be a.

Danny

Oh, yes. Yeah. Family meeting point.

Lydia

So Yeah. I hope it will happen again. I can see, you know, hiking in five years with, Christian and seeing where his life has gone, and hopefully, I'll still be here. And yeah.

Danny

So if your book is ready and published, so you can give me the link, and I will, send it also to the people on the mail list. And, the mail list mailing list is, growing in a quite a high speed, I must say. I didn't expect nothing when I started. So this Inner Camino House and with a podcast, but people start to join. So I think they might be interested in that. So I'm happy to share that. And.

Lydia

Happy to share it as well.

Danny

Yeah. And so before we close this episode, is there something, Christian, you really want to say to be Camino pilgrims or fellow pilgrims? What do you think? Oh, this is really I need to say.

Christian

Yeah. One thing I would say, if there's any young listeners out there or if there's any grandparents or parents out there make your young people take a break from the busy life. Because you know, you probably need it even if you don't think you do. So it's an amazing experience to have so early in my life, knowing that I can go back and also do it when I'm in my midlife crisis, like everybody else is doing.

Danny

Yeah. Thank you. That's a very good advice. Actually, I took my two youngest kids one by one. My son was thirteen when we walked, and my daughter was fifteen I'm very aware of the importance of rituals because they have a deep impact on a low, level in our system. So with my two youngest kids, I walked. With the two older ones, I went to the Unleash Power Within weekend of Tony Robbins in London, where there are ten thousand people and you walk over fire with ten thousand people as a kind of initiation, in young adulthood. They were eighteen each. So I think it is very important to do something like that. And, you know, what they do in Germany, I don't know if they do it all over the place, but when my kids were in elementary school and they were finished there, then there was a small ceremony, and I really liked it because it was really funny.

The you have the school entrance, exit, and they put, a bed in front of the exit, and then the kids were swinged and throwed out of the school and it sounds a bit silly, but because when you do that, you signal on a very deep level, this part of my life is finished and a new part is ended. Just by swinging one, two, and the kids was flying through the air, poof, on the mattress and, yeah, out of the school. You know, these kind of things, and it's also what you're referring to, Christian equal, like, it is so important to do that and have a different bonding and a different experience. And, Lydia, what is something you really want to say, before we close that you thought, oh, I need to say this?

Lydia

Well, the first thing is stop by the Inner Camino House if you ever get a chance. Oh. It's unforgettable but the second thing is that you never know, and I know this as a therapist because I have people talk to me about all the things that happen in their lives, when you're gonna be propelled out of the life that you expected or the life that you thought or the life you knew. And I guess I would share my favorite quote by the thirteenth century Persian poet Rumi who said journeys bring power and love back into you. If you can't go somewhere, move into the passageways of the self. They are like shafts of light always changing, and you change when you explore them. And I guess I would say to everybody who's going through a challenging time or a transition that even if you can't go on the Camino, find a way to take a journey, an inner journey or a journey around your neighborhood.

Just go on a journey because you change and you reconnect with your own power, your own self, and with that love that I think is available between people when we don't have judgment, and we the world just needs more of that right now.

Danny

Yeah. Yep. Thank you and, also, I just this morning, I had a talk with I have a lot of talks here in the Camino House. So, but, there were I was talking with somebody and yeah, we were talking about, in that somewhere I don't know if you remember that, Lydia. You don't know that, Christian, because you're a bit younger. But, till the end of the nineties in the Western world, we had a thing going on, we call this in the Netherlands, we and also in America, we agree that we disagree. And then so there was no judgment about the disagreement. There was a agreement that we disagree. And then the next sentence was, but have a look how we can get out of this situation in a way that it fits us both. And what I'm in a retrospective, I really see that somewhere at the end of the nineties, that phrase started to die. And if you don't agree with that you disagree, then there is only one thing left.

I'm right, and you are wrong. And then you are ending up in judgment, and it will not stop till you come back to that point that you just don't agree. But then have a look how we can continue any further. And that sentence, that knowing, that sense of we cannot disagree, but still we need to do something together. I pray that comes back in the society because that will kill the polarization, and it will stop perhaps before it is too late because I'm really worried, that the whole society goes in flames. Because there are many signs that it goes in a direction which is devastating. And I mean, not only mentally, but also physically and materially in a very black and dark space. And I'm really worried about that. And the thing is that I really hope that listening to the podcast and the episodes of the podcast, people start to regain the skill of nonjudgment so we can go back to that stuff.

Because Yeah. Listen all the time to self reflection, and it will and you will learn automatically to do that. So and it's the same. So yeah.

Lydia

So I really connect that purpose, Danny, and it's been an honor to be here today. And I think if everybody could spend the morning at the Inner Camino House or on the camino, then they would get back in touch with that part of themselves that really has the capacity to not other people and to not judge. So I appreciate what you're doing. Thank you.

Danny

Yeah. Thank you also for what you say. Yeah. Okay. So I think we, have covered everything. I really want to thank you both for being here in the podcast. I don't call it a show because this is not a show. The Americans always call it a show, but this is not a show that doesn't work. This is people talking and communicating with each other. So I really appreciated that you joined, that you take the step to participate. And listening is really awesome, but participation is really what I request people to do because then we can keep it going. And my first target is three hundred sixty five episodes so that she can listen every day to a pilgrim and be on the Camino for a moment. And I know, I live on the Camino now, and I have two people all the time in my house and be in the Camino. It will you will become you will change, and you will become an example for other people.

So and that's really, I strongly believe that. So really thank you both for joining and from two different countries, and, thank you very much.

Lydia

Thank you, Danny.

Christian

Thank you.

Danny

K. Thank you.

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