Episode 17 - Ida-Madeleine from Denmark - She wanted to save her relationship. She learned to trust a different outcome.

Transcript prepared with automatic speech and speaker recognition. Some wording or speaker labels may still need correction.

Danny

… Okay, fellow pilgrims. Today, I have, Ida Madelena, in the episode, in the podcast… in a Camino… podcast, a self reflection podcast, for pilgrims by pilgrims. We are both pilgrims. And, Ida, can you introduce yourself to your fellow, pilgrims, to the Camino family… Hello,

Ida-Madeleine

everybody. I am Ida, and I'm forty nine. I live in Denmark… in Scandinavia, and I do slight social work and is very oriented in helping other people and nature. And I hike a lot, and I've done it for decades. I am… the third generation of hiking women in my family. So, yeah, proud tradition walking.

Danny

Okay. So the walking, the hiking is in your DNA then?

Ida-Madeleine

Yes. Yeah.

Danny

That's in contrary of me because I hate hiking… But

Ida-Madeleine

the Camino is completely different. Yeah.

Danny

I know. And the people ask me, why do you walk eight hundred kilometers? I say, I don't hike. I'm on a pilgrimage. Yeah. So anyway so and, you know, this whole podcast is all about inner camino stories. This is not about your blisters and the backpack and the planning and the nice pictures. We see them a lot, and we have them on our phone when you already walked or on your camera. And, so it's all about the inner camino stuff like metrical moments, the camino provide moments, and especially the camino provide moments, what you need and not what you want. That's, they are the most interesting ones I've found out, but also things like, yeah, you brought some thoughts with you on the Camino. You leave them behind, that kind of stuff. So the real work, so to say, why we walk the Camino. So that's, yeah, we, that's why the podcast is here and, to support, our fellow pilgrims with, I hope bringing the Camino a little bit home and live the Camino vibe also more at home. That's the whole idea.

So what do you like to share… Well,

Ida-Madeleine

I wanted to share all sorts of, thoughts about the Camino. But just before I went talking to you today, something really funny happened. Because one year… ago, I ended in Santiago with my mother just two days ago on the fifth of September, and today is the seventh. And yesterday, it was the sixth of September, I was there for the first time with my daughter. And I was thinking about, oh, the inner Camino experience. And I got to realize this special place that I was sleeping… in Santiago with my daughter. It was just really beautiful hostel. And it happens to be I have a friend on the Camino right now. She plans to arrive on Thursday… and I don't know why. I just sent a link for the sleeping place in Santiago for her, and I said this was a nice place. If you're not there yet, you can go to sleep there. Mhmm. And she texted me back. The Camino provides. Thank you so much. I don't have a place to stay on Thursday.

Danny

Oh, okay Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

So it was just a little bit it was just a in the moment story. I'm here sitting, the pilgrim on the road, needs a place to sleep. And I don't know why I texted that for her, but I just did. And she was like, thank you. I need it.

Danny

Yeah. And that that's so true because I experienced myself. I walked the first time twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, I'm married, and twenty eighteen, but there were all kind of camino type of things happening afterwards as well. So and now I'm living here and the camino still continues… with all kind of stuff. And, yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

Exactly. And I was there in two thousand and seven. It was my first camino, first time… And for me, it was like finding… a way of feeling my thoughts, and I was so amazed that the Camino really provides. And, sure, it provides what you need, and you don't get it in the form that you want it…

Danny

so

Ida-Madeleine

it kind of blew my mind away. And I wanted to go back, and I was back in ten, and I came back later on with my daughter. And… we've… we had this, I think, one of the inner camino spirit kind of moments… where… we wanted to go eat seafood. We went on the Portuguese from Lisbon, and she wanted to have shrimps… And we went by all the restaurants, and it didn't really feel well. And then we had this place where, okay, we're not gonna walk anymore. We'll just go here. And none of us actually wanted to go there, but we did. And it was crap. and we knew it. And then, I had this book, you know, Briley, his lovely books… And they're, like, small quotes on the book. And we found this woah. That which

Danny

book was that?

Ida-Madeleine

That's, John Brierley. He did, like, he's

Danny

Oh, the pot that's a guidebook for a comedian Portuguese. Yeah. Okay

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. But he's, like, old school. In the old days, we used to get, like, the maps, and nobody knew where it came from. So it felt magical. Oh, it's the Camino. There are maps

Danny

Yeah. But

Ida-Madeleine

there was, like, a quote in the guidebook. And, actually, that was what I wanted to start with… for because that is the whole spot on what the Camino means for me… because it says look on every path closely and deliberately, then ask yourself and yourself alone one question. Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good. If it doesn't, it's no use… And for me, it's really the Camino is the way of the heart. If you need something, you ask for it with your heart, not with your desires or on or… you just ask, I need a place to sleep. There's gonna be a place to sleep. I need food. I need water. There will be water. I don't know where it come from, but there's just gonna be something magical around the corner. But it all comes from the heart. So

Danny

you say… when you wish it from the heart and not from desire, what's the difference… How do you know the difference? Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

It's a feeling, and it's very clean, and it's, like, comes from a different place in you than just clean desires. Is

Danny

so is a desire more intense than from the heart…

Ida-Madeleine

No. I don't think so. But I think I would call it the universe or the energy or the connection, the flow… religious, but I'm not real Christian or real religious, so I wouldn't say it was a God feeling or… in that sort. But it's just… this feeling of, I pray for this. I need this. It will be there. I trust the process. I trust people around me… Yeah. The

Danny

thing is because, for me, you touch a point which is very important for me and how I live my life the last couple of years in special is that… we have a saying, I already… talked about it in other episodes, my wife and me, we have a saying, something is taking care of us… And, if you are religious, then the something is God. When you're spiritual, then the something is the universe. And when you're a mathematical scientist, you say it is the quantum field. And I say, I have no clue what it is, but I know it is there. So but the thing for me was the biggest challenge. That's why I asked the question is that I had a I needed to learn to distinguish the… the thing which comes from the heart and from desire. And for me, it is and I don't know if it is for you, but for me, it is that… I know it comes from what I call my deep knowing, the from the heart. It's all words for the same thing I have the feeling.

Is that when there is hardly any emotion… and when it is a desire, it is much more intense. Like, I need to have a water now. You know? Then it is really intense. But it that that's But it's how I recognize it.

Ida-Madeleine

But it's also very narrow because…

Danny

I

Ida-Madeleine

think you would think I'm thirsty.

Danny

Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

And then you don't know what's gonna come. Or Yeah. It's… because it's true. If it's desire, it's much more emotional and much more ego based sort of thing Yeah. I did one time, I met we met a German lady in Porto.

Danny

Mhmm. I

Ida-Madeleine

was walking with my daughter. She was eight, and we were sleeping at this in Porto, and I was not able to have a room for the next day. It was just past corona COVID, it's called

Danny

Yeah. Mhmm. So

Ida-Madeleine

there were not so many sleeping places, and I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. She can't walk forty kilometers. And I was talking to this German lady, and she said, maybe we should just pray some more.

Danny

And I was like,

Ida-Madeleine

but I'm not…

Danny

yeah. Kind

Ida-Madeleine

of, like, thinking about it, and I went… to the dorm where my where we were sleeping, and I said, okay. Maybe I should pray a little bit more. So I prayed for help for a place to sleep. And… I woke up at, like, four or five o'clock in the night, and I was like, okay. I'm gonna check Airbnb. I was check I checked it the night before. I checked everything. We slept on hotel and hostels. We just needed a place to sleep, and there was this room, new room coming up in the middle of the night. And I was just like, okay. Thank you. You're nervous.

Danny

I can do

Ida-Madeleine

the praying a little bit more… so… in that… sort of way, the Camino provides, and it was just from the heart Yep. But it demands sort of trust… for the process.

Danny

Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

and I think the beauty of this role how

Danny

did you gain the trust? How did it work? Because that's one of the most difficult things. Because we also say, I'm a believer. I believe. And I say if you believe, then you, still you hope that it is true, but somewhere in you is… something active that it is not true. That's why you believe it could be true. So how do you get to trust that when you do that it will, surface? how did you gain that trust…

Ida-Madeleine

By trying. I guess I that would be the most… proper answer. and I think when I did my first Camino, I did not know that this was gonna happen… but it just showed up by itself, sort of.

Danny

Yeah. and

Ida-Madeleine

after a few times, it was like, okay. Something really it's really strange here.

Danny

Yeah. There

Ida-Madeleine

must be something I need to learn. And the more you focus, the more it shows up. It doesn't mean that there's not gonna happen unpleasant things. It doesn't mean that it's not gonna be rough or… all that stuff. It just means that when you're really needed, it's there.

Danny

Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

And I think in the first communion, I met all these people that gave me words. They gave me talks. They gave me belief in myself, and they told me really interesting stuff that… well, it was just maybe five minute… with one person walking. And they said something that just embraced in my heart, and it was just, okay. Thank you. I needed to hear this.

Danny

Mhmm. And I

Ida-Madeleine

think when I walked with my daughter, it was much more practical help, if you can call it that way. We had, episodes old was

Danny

she how old was she then?

Ida-Madeleine

She was eight years. Eight

Danny

years? Oh, okay. Wow.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. We did a thousand kilometers together, alone. Just her and me… from Lisbon. And I think… from Lisbon… it was a little bit rough because it's not there are not so many people, and… it's a different Camino. But Yeah. There were still people there helping. But it maybe the first day we were walking, we did twenty nine kilometers and Mhmm. Like, thirty degrees, and the Albergue was closed. So we were standing in this Portuguese town with there was only a bar open. But somehow, some guys took me to the train station by car, and I could go on and find a hotel somewhere else… even though they didn't speak English at all.

Danny

So

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. So it's just the Camino provides, and we and it's true. How do we gain trust? I don't know. I wish I had an answer because then everybody could learn it.

Danny

Yeah. The thing is… so, we are back. I needed to stop for a second because our new dog, Mackie, came in the room, so I need to put her out. Otherwise, we cannot continue what we were talking about. So, Eddy, you were talking about that you didn't had a place to sleep, and… some people just from nowhere gave you a lift to the railway station.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. We just went into the bar, and nobody was speaking English. It was this very small town, and I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. But some guy just got up, and he was like, come with me, sort of sign language, and he took me to the train station… so we could move on. And we went to the next town and got a hotel, and fine. Then we moved on. Yeah. and I think when you travel with children, it's a very different camino than when you do your inner adult camino stuff. But it still turned out that… even though it's a little bit different, we still ended up with the same Camino experience…

Danny

Yeah. So… you know, we were talking about trusting, which I also mentioned in another episode. I didn't know I don't know if you have heard it. So I will just repeat the what I told there, briefly. But, my wife and me, we had ten years ago a situation in life where we had financially, we're struggling a lot for a couple of years in a row, and I could not get the whole thing under control. there was a lot of social, dynamic in my life. So and we could not deal with that as well. We could just not get it under control. We couldn't handle it. and that's for me as a previous IT manager, quite difficult that you cannot can't you can't get it under control. That was not my world. But then at a certain moment in time, something happened totally unexpected, totally insane, and the result was something I could not imagine before. So it was so in our face that something was helping us and taking care of us that we could not deny.

And, you could say it is God, the universal conflict, again, I don't know what it is. But we actually started to research in our life, both our lives. And then we discovered that there were more of these moments in our life where… at a really and it was always the same three things, attributes, unexpected in time, unexpected moment, a crazy thing happening, and the end result was something I could really not imagine before myself. And I we found quite a lot of these things. So actually, we did it as in purpose to go back in time because then you reprogram your instinct and trust of not knowing. So that is how we, finally and then later when we did that, then, when so it took us two weeks to research in our history. And then we said, okay. And we had… a couple of, let's say, ten examples for each life. So we could actually say to our instincts, hey, dude. we are well-being taken care of. You can be afraid, but you do not don't need to overtake it. And then we said, okay.

that was the past. Is it still happening, or was it just fantasy? So in a period of time of three years, we were like a radar system, and then we noticed that happened… again and again. So now we are in a space that we have such a deep trust and not a believer. I know that something is taking care of us. and so and but it is quite a journey, to be honest, to move to the space of that deep trust…

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. And I think on the Camino, it's very concentrated, sort of, when you walk this long distance… And I don't know why. It just feels like you're walking into some… different energy source, or there are many people there on the road and… walking. there's so much energy… that it takes more energy to get the same synchronous synchronicity in our everyday life because you are just one person. But in the Camino, it's like a flood of energy of people walking. I did after my first Camino, I came home and I made some walking groups… with a theme, like, spiritual walks, but themes with, like, accept or, I don't know, forgiveness or something. And… and I realized you have to walk a certain kilometers… to make it, like, open the topic, being in it, and closing it. Yeah. And it was fun to experience that, but the same thing happens…

Danny

with the

Ida-Madeleine

flow and the talks, and you could be, like, ten people meeting. And it just was just magical trips. And everybody came, like, changed back, and all this… weird stuff happened… on the hikes or walks. And… and I think it's possible to bring in the Camino in everyday life.

Danny

Yeah. But

Ida-Madeleine

it's two different places sort of, and I think… if you wanna convince somebody to trust, then that's very easy when you do a pilgrimage…

Danny

Yeah. More

Ida-Madeleine

than trying to explain it in everyday life Yeah. But the Camino is everywhere, but it seems like when you're doing it alone, it's a little bit more difficult Yeah.

Danny

And I think also that if you walk here, the Camino Frances, that's what I experienced. I didn't walk the other ones… It is more the noise of the daily life is more it is a very wide distance. So the things which the communion provide moments, what I what we discovered, they are actually all the time there, but we don't notice them because there's so much noise of daily life in your life. So it's like a veil pull over your, capability to see that you are being helped. And if it is like that, then we say something like, oh, that's oh, yeah. That's faith. That's destiny or something or synchronicity, and we continue. Yeah? we recognize it, but we continue.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. but I also think because we, you know, we have Camino in Denmark. It starts in Norway, and it's also going through Denmark, and I did from Sweden to Germany. And the path is marked, not all the way. Some of the way is better marked. And there are some areas of the Danish Camino where you can get the Spanish Camino vibe because there's a little and… and it's more like people know there's a Camino there's a path. And the places where there are no marking and it's not, like, known there's a path, it gets a little bit… harder to, like, get this touch with the surroundings because… people around it are not used to you sit there with your luggage and look exhausted. they think, like, what are they doing here? Yeah. Because it's just normal road, and it doesn't look like a hiking path. So Yeah. I think something gets a little enhanced on the Camino, and I just… really like… the inner Camino way. And I think… for me, it's I call it the heart.

And in English, it sounds really crazy compared to Danish, but it's like the way of the heart. But it… but if you say it in a different way, it sounds like it's a really hard, like, tough way. So I don't know.

Danny

Yeah. No. I think in English, it's for me, it sounds… I comprehend, I believe, what you mean, and it's the way of the heart. Yeah. And so… I have a lot of questions, so I do want Yeah. So what I I'm interested in, I walked the first time with my son. He was then thirteen, Joshua… So you walked your second one with your daughter. She was then eight. What made you to walk with your daughter… why did you do that…

Ida-Madeleine

I wanted to give her a little piece of the Camino. I wanted to… give her a little piece of her mother in her heart… because it's a very big deal in my life, the Camino… I'm the only parent for her. I get, like, emotional now because it's I think it's a really beautiful thing, but I was… her father is not present. So I wanted her to have something that I was sure she would know forever, like giving her… some resources and build her some trust in life if anything happened to me ever. and I had a little free time, and I was like, I don't wanna go to, I don't know… some… beach vacation. I want to give her, like, big impact.

Danny

Yeah…

Ida-Madeleine

so I thought this would be… a great adventure. and it really made so big impact on her life. We were talking about yesterday, five years ago, we got home from the first one, and she was sitting in tears in the couch. And she was like, oh my god. I don't understand that I was so small.

Danny

She's now

Ida-Madeleine

thirteen now.

Danny

Thirteen.

Ida-Madeleine

Yes Yeah. And… a year ago, I went with my mother. She was nearly eighty, and my daughter was twelve at that point… Or my mother wanted to see Santiago before it was too late. she never went. She never, had the option or the possibility to go. And I thought, okay. I'm gonna bring my teenager, with me. And… it kind of I think maybe the combination of the two trips, but it made her heart fill with Camino.

Danny

So… last year, you went again with your daughter, but also with your mother then?

Ida-Madeleine

Yes.

Danny

And now where did you start then? So we started

Ida-Madeleine

in Syria. It was only the last, hundred and Hundred kilometers. Yes. Because my mother is… aging. Yeah. and we went with backpacks Yeah. and it was really great adventure. But, for me, it was really interesting because I was walking the Camino with my future and with my past because we look like each other. Mhmm. So I was in this whole… emotional mixture. I didn't know it was coming, but… I kind of looked at my mother, and I was like, my god. That's me in a few years. Well, thirty years, but time goes by. And I could look at my daughter, and she looked just like me being a teenager. And he was like, where did I go? where did my time go? I'm getting older, and… I don't look the same anymore. I'm aging, and I'm just looking at this twelve year old girl that could just running the mountains in front of us. And I was, like, in the middle, and my mother, she came in the back, dragging herself up the mountains Yeah. And it was emotional… Yeah.

But… like all other, there was also all these really beautiful moments of, like, a lady singing in the forest… telling stories that we brought home with us and kind of… is still living today… Or we went without rain clothes, and we never really needed it. And well, not for the first four days. And then it was we needed it, and we were just like, okay. Now we actually need something. We've been wet for four days. It's time to surrender. And we went in the shop, and we just got it. And it was just like, okay. Yeah. The camino provides Yep. Yeah. We got a family. I love the idea of a camino family.

Danny

Oh, yeah. Me too. It's also very painful because you lose them all the time. And, sometimes I thought I you know, like, you see these war movies, and then the first wave of soldiers go in and a lot of them die, and then the second… wave because when because they are unexperienced, they will die first, and they don't want to connect to them because they cannot deal with the hardship. I had the same last year because I lost my Camino family four times because I was having trouble with my knees. And at the last part, I really became hesitant to reconnect again because I couldn't stand the pain anymore. You know? Yeah. But it is so intense. Yeah. But it is beautiful. It is beautiful.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. And I feel so loved that we actually And I even did the first time with my daughter. We got our own Camino family, and maybe we're gonna see some of them next year.

Danny

Yep. and

Ida-Madeleine

even though I was traveling with a kid, eight years old, very small legs, I still got a family from Porto, and I met them all the way to Finis there.

Danny

Yep. We

Ida-Madeleine

met the last one out in Finis there, and I was… so grateful. And the provides. it kind of gave me these people that was looking after me and kind of enjoyed our company, and I could talk with some adults… sometimes. Yeah.

Danny

So…

Ida-Madeleine

it's really amazing.

Danny

Yeah. So your daughter went then with you two times.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah.

Danny

And… Okay. She's, thirty now? Yeah. Twelve yeah. Thirteen. Yeah. is she aware… of what happened there, and what is the meaning, you think, for her…

Ida-Madeleine

Yes. That's why the quote from the book is so important. Because in our family, we use it as… guidance. If we don't know what to do, then it's like, hey. Did we ask the heart? What way are we going?

Danny

But what's the quote again?

Ida-Madeleine

It was, that… look at every part path closely and deliberately, then ask yourself and yourself one alone, one question. Does this path have a heart?

Danny

Yeah. If

Ida-Madeleine

it does, the path is good. If it doesn't, it's of no use.

Danny

Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

So, yes, example, yesterday, we were in the forest hiking, and we came for a crossroad. And we were like, what way are we going… What does it what ask the heart. What looks good? Okay. That looks good. We go that way. Mhmm. So she knows… what's… what this heart this that it should come from the heart, and… she knows that there's synchronicity… She knows the flow feeling. She knows that you can pray for help…

Danny

Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

and she knows… that sometimes you just gotta do yourself.

Danny

Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

And… because the Camino for me, I know that there's some distance where it feels like my last marriage.

Danny

Yeah. a

Ida-Madeleine

little bit rough, too much concrete, and not so happy. Mhmm. Lots of cars or traffic, and it's not nice. And then… it changes. And you are in this beautiful landscape. Everything is nice, and then it changes for something else. So it's just… it's a mirror of life

Danny

Yeah. Oh, Yeah. Oh, yeah. And especially the last part because, the population density in Galicia is much more than we live in Foloria de Rioja that's between Santo Domingo de la Calzada and Bellorado. So that's what is it? sixty kilometers, Parcel Grunio. So we are in the beginning of the Meseta landscape. Yeah. So it is very quiet. We have twenty five people living here. And even if I want to I need a plumber, they don't come here because it's just too far away, but you don't have to, probably in Galicia because there are more enough plumbers. So and that that's and then you have these changes there indeed. Like, suddenly you walk in the forest, they have these lanes where… the branches are grown together. on the top, you walk to a tunnel of green, which is not, made by people, but just grow that way. And then you the next time the next moment you walk through an industry area.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. But you don't know either which one is gonna be good for you because… sometimes… I would like there are other people. And then I don't wanna be in, like, this beautiful forest where there's no people. And then it's not pretty. So it's like mirroring your life. Yep. Because sometimes it's nice to be in a city… and there are cars and you feel safe. Or for me, it is. It depends on what's what state of mind I'm in. Yep. But I think it's just a reflection that my life is not far five star hotels every day. I also have… days where I have to do the dishes.

Danny

Yep. And you mentioned that your daughter also understand that now, that you sometimes just need to go through it.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. and it's very nice because she got that sort of spirit that she knows. It's… yeah, it's just like a Camino. It's just like being you have to sleep on this place. There's no place… other to go. You need to eat this food because you cannot have any other food.

Danny

Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

So this whole experience of… being able to show her that is really beautiful. And I think even though she's, like, real teenager now and she's like, I don't wanna go another Camino, I kinda told her that next year, we're going to Trondheim… I want to do the last hundred kilometers to going to Trondheim… because then I think I can do a circle in her life, and then I think… she must find her own path.

Danny

Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

But she hasn't said no. But… for me, it's a great gift… to give that to her. Yeah.

Danny

But

Ida-Madeleine

I also wanted to give it to a lot of other people, and I think I try in small everyday life here Mhmm. In Denmark to be, like, talking about the Camino and talking about… this way of trusting.

Danny

And how does people react on that…

Ida-Madeleine

Well… sometimes Like, they look at you with

Danny

eyes like, oh, she lost some marbles?

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. Sometimes.

Danny

Yeah…

Ida-Madeleine

and sometimes they know that, okay, there always happens something really amazing in my life, or there's, like, a good energy, or they feel it themself… So… usually, I think people understand…

Danny

Yeah. And

Ida-Madeleine

I think… everybody has their own way in life.

Danny

Yep. They

Ida-Madeleine

all do their own camino, and I can only do my camino. I don't… I cannot share my Camino with anybody else. But I can wait for mine and say, hey. You can do it like this way. Or, oh, are you lost? Maybe you should just have a five minute break and pray some more. Or… I don't know, just be there and be present like everybody else is on the Camino…

Danny

Yeah. You know, I mentioned, my first Camino was in twenty thirteen. I walked with my son. He was then thirteen. Yeah. So the bond we already had… deepened in us in a way I cannot… tell, but I feel it. But it was also quite interesting because I, like I said, I hate hiking, so I never hiked in my whole life. So that was the first time. And then there were days that I really thought, oh, man, what I'm doing here, I don't want to continue anymore, you know. And then my little boy was standing there. Hey, daddy. Come on. You can make it. Come on. You can make it. You know? And I have a picture of him. one day later, I still remember the two events that he said it to me. And one day later, he was standing on his poles with his hand leaning on it, and he was totally… he didn't know what to do anymore. You know? And he was totally at his end. And, I said to him, come on, man. You made me do it yesterday. You can do it as well, you know?

That kind of support to each other was something very new because normally you're the father and you motivate your kid. And then it was, it's something we motivated each other… in a very simple way, but very profound. It was like, there is that difference and, between a father and a son. I'm not the friend of my son. I'm the father of my son, and he and he's my son. But still, there was a kind of… equal… thing there, you know. I was didn't know what to do. He helped. He give me with his words as little notch to continue, and the next day, I did the same with him. And it was very I that moment is one of the dear moments I remember from there are some more, but that was one of the, yeah, one I, remember the most. And, yeah. And I walked in twenty eighteen with my daughter. She was named fifteen… and she didn't want to come… So, she said, no. I don't walk with you. I said, yeah. You do. No, I don't walk. I said, yeah, you do No. You can't force me.

I said, yes, I can… so we went to a shop buying the pack and all stuff. You can buy all the stuff, but I don't come with you anyway. I said, yes, you do. And a couple of day a week before we left, she said, you know, this is kidnapping. I can go to the police. I said, that's fine. I can bring you. So to the police. So the day that we get in the car, she was sitting with her arms folded, which, you know, with a face like, I don't go with you. And we're driving and the face was very quickly gone. And, I noticed while walking that she loved it. And, she's now twenty two. Until the day of today, she never told me that she liked me liked it, but she told her mother and her brother and her aunt, so I know… And that's still something special, but still she's a young adult and it still goes all directions. So, yeah, that was, very special. So for me, walking with your kids is a very special, thing.

But I never walked with my parents so that you were able to walk with your mother and your daughter. That is really special.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. it was really special. I think when I was a kid, we did a lot of hiking with my parents, but, actually, I'm not… I had a lot of years where I was not that close. And I only got the chance to bring her because my father died. And… and for me, it was really a big gift… to bring her there and let her see it. But… I think because my daughter was with us, it didn't really change so much on our relationship… So it was a little bit… it was a little bit different, and I think she was old. It was a really… it was hard physical for her to hike with the backpack… and I think that was enough for her. There was no more energy. There is a lot of we talk a lot about it, and we still send pictures and said, oh, it's a year ago and all that stuff. but… but for me, I think… my relationship with my daughter is different… because we have been very close always. And I think for me, it I had to look after my mother and my daughter, so I was also very much the caregiver Yeah.

I had to make sure where to eat and where to sleep, and they were, like, exhausted. And I had to tell them, you need to go shower now. And

Danny

Yeah I know. Yeah. I had the same with my, son and daughter. you still you what you say? You walk yourself, but you don't arrive so much on the Camino yourself because you're still focused on the outside world then…

Ida-Madeleine

No. And yes. Okay.

Danny

Yeah. Because

Ida-Madeleine

I think even though the outside world… occupied my time, then there was so much going on inside Yeah. And for instance, I was… I was having trouble in my relationship, and we met this Spanish lady in the forest that was singing, and she was making bracelets… And it was really amazing. And then we could ask for something while she was, like, making the bracelet, and she was singing. She said she could not sing in English, so I don't know what she actually said. But I was wishing… that I needed, like, clearing for my relationship, for my life. And I wanted to live the communal way of life every day. And it happened in the spring, and I'm living alone now. and when I moved in my new place, the bracelet just broke. And…

Danny

Wow. Okay. Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

And I just at that point, I was not thinking that I should live alone. I was just asking for I wanted to have this being better because we were at a place where we were not that happy together, and we were arguing and having a lot of issues. And we worked really hard on it, and it didn't work out well, but maybe it worked out like the universe think we should go. Yeah.

Danny

So

Ida-Madeleine

you don't always get what you want, but you get what you need. Yeah.

Danny

And only afterwards, you understand why you get receive the shitty thing you didn't want. Yeah. And then you think, okay. Now I understand. But could you not do it in a different way? That's what I always say. I look up and say, hey, dude. If you are so powerful, why did you give me a dead way? Can you can also do it in another way, you know? But, I think human beings… the best way we learn is through pain…

Ida-Madeleine

Unfortunately, yes. But it really oh, it's re no. I don't think it's true. We learn and we grow through love Yeah.

Danny

Because

Ida-Madeleine

if there's only pain, then it's just shit. I think I've been there enough… and I think my growth comes through love. Yeah. It comes through people see me… and the presence of being together with another person, with another pilgrim… or… other friends or what you can say, but it's it feels amazingly healing to be on the Camino and being accepted by complete strangers. Nobody asks you anything. You don't have to go around and say, oh, I'm so important in my work life, or I have this very special clothes or… anything. You're just a person. Yeah.

Danny

And

Ida-Madeleine

the way you treat other on the camino comes back to you.

Danny

Yep. So

Ida-Madeleine

it's true we grow… from experiencing… pain. Yeah.

Danny

it's just a kind of a kick under your butt to move. Yeah. and if I look at my life in the nineties, I was a stubborn Dutch guy. So I knew it all because that's how the Dutch people are known. we know and know everything better. at least we think that other people from outside the Netherlands thinks about the Dutch people like that. I don't really don't know, but that's what we think other pea other countries think about. Anyway, I was a stubborn guy and I didn't want to listen, so God gave me hell… in a way you cannot imagine for a period of three years. And I didn't… I went through it, I didn't receive I had no so much pain at that moment, because I was in survival mode. Yeah. And then when everything was behind me and then… the whole thing came into my emotion… sphere atmosphere and everything changed in my life. But not at the moment that all the shit was going on. Yeah. And, but if that would not have happened, I would not sit here now talking with you.

Ida-Madeleine

But then you would be somewhere else. I

Danny

would be somewhere else. That's a fact. I cannot deny that, and perhaps I would not be alive anymore. But anyway, I mean, it took me on a path, which opened me for a lot of stuff, which I was not busy, with at that time. I was around thirty five years old at that time. Yeah. So and it was a kind of, like I said, a kick under my butt. hey, dude. I warned you a couple of times. She didn't want to see you, didn't want to listen. Here you have a problem. Oh, you still don't want to listen? You get another one. Oh, still not enough? You get another one. So I had four things going at the same time, which was really extreme. And, so… but

Ida-Madeleine

what do you think then makes the difference? Because that's what I have been thinking a lot about it because you can experience all stuff in your life. But why is some people listening to their heart or intuition… and why is… there somebody that is just keep on living in hard life? I never understood the difference between, like you said, what makes your heart open… for distrust or for the universe or believing that the universe will provide. Why? It's not because Yeah.

Danny

Why? So I noticed by myself, we had a talk here today with a pilgrim… in the inner Camino house here, and, actually, we had the same… discussion Yeah. That's funny. So we talked about it, and I called it I don't know the English word for it… Oh, yeah. So… I have a very small tolerance space. Mhmm. So if something is off… then I really fast hit the border of this is an existential threat. But for me the tolerance range is very tiny. So I really get very quickly to the point I need to change it because otherwise my whole life goes down. And for I what I noticed that… for ninety percent of the people around me, they have ten times as much tolerance. So and they look at me for, hey, dude. why you so excited? Yeah. We can still manage it. And I No. and so and that and I noticed that at the moment that you hit your tolerance barrier. So let's say my tolerance is ten… and from the other person is hundred. At the moment that you reach your border hundred, people start acting.

I've seen it happening again and again. And, but for me, the space is very small. So I act really fast in comparison with other people. And It's really

Ida-Madeleine

interesting. I'm trauma, trauma therapist, educated. So I guess it's the tolerance window Yeah. The tolerance window

Danny

Yeah. That's the word.

Ida-Madeleine

So you think it's small…

Danny

For me, it is very small. Because at the moment, what I noticed that at the moment I perceive, and I want to state perceive because it doesn't need to be that way in reality, but at the moment I perceive it as an existential threat… then I act and you cannot stop me. I my instinct kicks in and you can do whatever you want, I'm unstoppable, I continue and I really become then also, like I push everything away. Nothing with violence, you know, physical violence, but you cannot stand in my way. I will keep going. What I noticed that, people who has a very wide tolerance window, they keep going and going till they had their barrier, and then they go.

Ida-Madeleine

Like, I know it's, yeah, it's really interesting… that you're saying because it's a different way of thinking. I thought, well, maybe it was because it was more sensitivity… for… how you feel the world…

Danny

Yeah. For me, I feel very so I many years ago, we had to also talk about that, and I had an example. and that is following… a street boy in Rio de Janeiro of nine years old with no parents living on the street. He is factually in real existential danger. That's a fact. Yeah. The chance that he… grow up more than fifteen years old is very small… So when he joins a gang and he perhaps on to be able to do that he needs to kill somebody or he needs to do something to earn membership of the gang. And so they do the initiation work, whatever it is, and they become part of the gang. And then perhaps the boy is ten years, twelve years old. So for the instinct of that boy, he feels safe, but in reality, he isn't. Because still the chance that he becomes thirty years old is very small… And then we had a financial crisis and at that time I was working in Amsterdam in we call it this the South X where all the banks and the insurance companies are and like a kind of a small Wall Street so to say.

So, I was working there and then you had these bankers they lost the job because of the financial crisis… and they totally panicked because they felt because losing the job was for them an existential threat, which is totally not true. Because if you lose your job, you get social security in the Netherlands, And the worst thing can happen is that you need to sell your car, your house, you, perhaps you have a divorce, because everybody, the whole life falls in pieces, but you will not die. But for that person, it feels the same as for the boy. But factually, it is totally something different. And the banker, he's most likely still lives. And the boy of that time, most likely, is not there anymore, because the facts are different. So for me, the tolerance span is that when I hit that barrier, it feels like an existential threat. And then instinct kicks in and you start acting. And that I've seen around me quite a lot with people, and they keep going and going.

And for me, if I look at it and I think, wow, how can you hold that? You know? And they look at me from, hey, dude, Be a little bit quiet. It's still okay. We can manage that. No. You cannot manage it. It's really dangerous No. It's okay. You know, that difference Yeah. Makes any sense?

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. It makes really sense, but I don't know… how we end up on the Camino, everybody, then… No. Because I think what makes all these interesting people… go on the Camino. Yeah.

Danny

But the thing also is if you look at, women, for instance, you see women, they, marry or they fell in love fall in love with a man, and the man turned out to be, somebody who kicks her, the woman, many times broken bones in the hospital. And then the outside world, you see that all over the place. she cuts out of the hospital and she goes back to the guy… And she kicked she comes in the hospital, she goes back and she comes and she starts stop she stops that at the moment that her instinct feels, now it becomes really unsafe. And that's the moment where she doesn't feel it that she can't control him anymore. Be because before she still know she has the feeling that she can't handle him. Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

It's the pattern of trauma bonding. Exactly.

Danny

And at the moment that the instinct perceives, okay, now he not only broke my nose, but also my ribs and some other stuff. Now I had becomes dangerous, then you reach the threshold. And when I seen, then women start acting, and they leave, and they do everything to save themselves and the kid. And that is what I talk about. And I think also what I see here today, there were three young ladies from America. They were here. We were I had a talk, and they have a very small threshold window Yeah? Because they said, I don't know if I want to go in the direction of my parents. So at a young age, they already sense that for them it is already an existential question. But for all the others who still keep studying and going on university to do something perhaps you don't need anymore because AI will do it in two years. Yeah. But they still do that because their window, how you call it, that threshold window.

Ida-Madeleine

Tolerant window of tolerance. Yeah. The

Danny

window of tolerance is then much wider than the other ones, and then you want to have an answer. And it could be that you then end up walking the Camino searching for an answer. So

Ida-Madeleine

is the window of… tolerance… a measurement… for… also the way you connect to yourself? Yeah. Because I think when you walk the Camino… you get really intense connection. I think it's it has something to do with the physical path of it that you are walking, and your body, like, works really nice because it's like being back in times… with less food and exercise every day. But you also have all this time alone and, like you say, without, disturbance… And it just gets a really deeper connection. So… sort of I don't know if you can say that the challenge window is a way of being in the world where you connect with yourself.

Danny

Yeah. You know, in if you study psychology, which I did, as a sidetrack, I'm an IT dude. Yeah. But because I was working in the IT, I also had the question, why do we do what we do, and I how can I influence it positively? Because it was really hard to manage the teams. And, so I study, and then you also see the differences in persons, we call it the window of change. So, the window of change is something like, when I do something one and a half till three years max, I start doing something else. And other people can do something for the whole life, which is for me unthinkable to do… because that's a part of my personality that somehow I organize then change. And many times I think, oh, man, I'm so jealous on you. You can do this for twenty years, you know? but I couldn't do it because that's my personality. It's a personality trait. It's like the window of tolerance is also personality trait.

And, what I just wanted to say, at the moment you hit the tolerance barrier and the instinct starts to feel it perceives it as an existential threat, you go and you do you take action. Then the force start, then you change your job. And some people are twenty years in a marriage which doesn't work, and another only three years, and the same with jobs and the place where you live. And that was what I've seen. And what I have noticed now and also our walking the four times, but especially here, I think we received now around four thousand pilgrims as guests since the ninth of May. Can you imagine?

Ida-Madeleine

no,

Danny

me too No. It's unbelievable. But… for the most pilgrims… not all, but for most pilgrims, it is a question like, who do I who am I? And if I don't discover that, my life goes astray. do I really want to do this in the future? That especially the young people between nineteen and thirty years old, they come with these questions. the people between thirty and forty… when they are there, they have not so much of these type of questions, but then between after forty, then you have the first divorce, you'll lose a child, you lose parents, and then you go on the Camino because you're searching. And you don't search if you don't reach the threshold. That is how I perceive it. Perhaps I'm totally wrong. Perhaps I'm totally wrong, but that's how I understand it. And even… I I'm I, there is here there was a guy, he was, I think, in his eighties. Yeah.

And for him, it was really important to walk to Camino… again and again because that kept him alive… So for him, not walking the Camino is an existential threat.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. So it kind of when you hit the barrier of the tolerance window, you get the urge to search for a solution, and that opens your heart.

Danny

Exactly. Yeah…

Ida-Madeleine

Well, that's really interesting…

Danny

That's how I came to that conclusion. Yeah. So I'm not a scientist. just my logical mind at work for many years, and it came to that conclusion. And for me, I see that happening around me again and again.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. And I think, yeah, it's it makes sense for me as well because when I did arrange the trips in Denmark where we walked… strange strangers came on along on the trips. I didn't know them, and we just did talk. And it was twelve kilometers that was the magic point. And I didn't see them again, and so I saw them, but we had all these wild conversations. And people came maybe because they lost their job or was sick or there was all these… different motives for showing up. So it's the searching… that kind of opens the heart. And then the trick is to stay with the open heart when you are not searching anymore. And that's the next chapter that Yeah. Staying in the Camino spirit with open heart and being… well, not actively searching, but just have this… open heart presence in the moment. So

Danny

my question is, how can you keep your heart open…

Ida-Madeleine

By being present.

Danny

And what happens then when you are present? why what's the difference of not being present and open heart? It's just I'm curious…

Ida-Madeleine

Because when I am present And we go deep

Danny

today.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah… when I'm present, I notice the flower. I notice the sun in my face. I can laugh. I can smile at a stranger in the shop. I can also do all this magic adventures, but, actually, it's just everyday life. Yeah. Being present is about being able to… actually feel this moment. Yep. So I don't do something I don't lay on the couch at night and just look out on the television. I do some days if I need it, but I keep on asking myself, what do I need today? And that is being present. And when I'm present, I can hear the world. Yeah.

Danny

And

Ida-Madeleine

I can feel it with my heart. And then I can go, oh, I would really like something nice. And then somebody's gonna call me and say, oh, you wanna go for a walk, or should we have a coffee? Or but you need to be present. Yeah.

Danny

and then also the form that's also I'm I agree. What I noticed, I discovered a couple of years ago, I think it was… seven years ago, my youngest son is diagnosed with ADHD… and so we were busy figuring out what was going on, so we went to psychologists and psychologists did his alumnusia. There was… a meeting of more than two hours, and he asked one of the parents to come with him with my son. So I was with my son there. So, I discovered I could check all the boxes also green, and I really started to understand a lot of things in my life… Why do I say that? Because… for me, become really present… looks for other people totally strange. Because for me, the easiest way to become really present is driving in my car… It's not meditating and especially not walking alone in the forest. Because if I walk alone in a forest, my head goes berserk. I have Yeah. Ten thousand ideas and I come back totally excited after an hour. Yeah. And my wife goes crazy. Yeah.

And I so I said, I don't get any rest when I walk, but when I sit in the car, my brain is busy… with driving. So I'm fully there. And at that moment, I'm completely… present. Yes.

Ida-Madeleine

I lived with my ex partner had HTH. Didn't… know what it's called now. All the letters. Yeah. He got a late diagnosed as well. and I just know what you're I completely understand. There's a difference between what does prison means. Exactly.

Danny

In the form for that person. So when people tell to me, when I'm excited, okay. do quiet, sit down, meditate a little bit, for me, doesn't work. No.

Ida-Madeleine

And I think for me, I don't know. It doesn't it works maybe one day, but another day, I need… to sleep. Yeah. Because

Danny

I

Ida-Madeleine

cannot be present if I'm tired or I need something to eat. So it's sort of you need to find your own way, and that's all the Camino is your way of life. What works for you, what makes you present, what can keeps your heart keep your heart open Yep. That's

Danny

true. So I was also wondering another question. You told me you just told the your fellow your Camino family, that you walked with your mother. She was eighty, and she was totally occupied in my words with… dealing with the walking, your aging body, and things like that. you still talk about it. What was what does he report she is reporting to you as an effect of the Camino? What kind of impact… did it had on her … I

Ida-Madeleine

think she realized, what she want wanted to do with her life… when my father died, she had a few big adventures on her to do list. And I think during the trip, she recognized her age… and… she recognized also that her time was, well, not short, but she she's. And the impact the Camino had was she was living in Copenhagen, like, big city, in an apartment. And… half a year after we got back, she sold her apartment and got a house in the country… in the middle of nowhere… well, it's actually so much in the middle of nowhere. She's also taking her driver's license at the moment. Oh,

Danny

okay. Wow. So

Ida-Madeleine

the Camino

Danny

has some impact sometimes. Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

She was like, okay. I've done all the big adventures. Now I'm going my way. Yeah.

Danny

And

Ida-Madeleine

I think for her… spending time with me and her granddaughter… was very valuable. She has been cheerleading my always… on the side. And I think for her, it's just, like, really big adventure Yeah.

Danny

Being

Ida-Madeleine

there. Yeah. So it it's yeah. So grateful for actually being there. And for some of us, it's just like, okay. We can just go to Spain, and there's no problem. But when you're eighty, you're not going… just like that on your own. Just easy. She never traveled before. She did well, she did after my father died, but she lived a completely isolated life. So for her, this was, like, really big and once in a lifetime experience. Yeah.

Danny

I can imagine. Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

It's really amazing. I'm seeing her on the square… in front of the church in Santiago… was Matthew. And just as it's supposed to be and it always is, we turn around, and there was the Camino family. Really?

Danny

Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

She was so happy because she didn't she we thought we lost them. Yeah.

Danny

It

Ida-Madeleine

was a Spanish father with walking with two teenage girls. Oh, okay.

Danny

And

Ida-Madeleine

yeah. It's really amazing. And my daughter, she still connects with them on… on Instagram, and that's the new world because you can follow each other. Yeah.

Danny

That's true. That's, very strange. Like my youngest daughter, she's now like I mentioned, twenty two. And yesterday, she published on YouTube, a walk around in her new house. She has now in her first own apartment… And, so instead of that she sent the video to me directly, she published it on YouTube because she has her own channel. She is an influencer. So she published it there. And then for me, it is like, hey. You also could send it to me personally. But for here for her, it's logical that I can look yeah. You can see it on YouTube. For her, it is a totally different meaning When you put it on YouTube, we're not sending it to you directly. You know? It did that world is totally different. Yeah. So do you want to walk again… Are you planning I

Ida-Madeleine

hope we go, yeah, we go to Norway to go the last hundred kilometers Mhmm. And the other one next year. and… of course, I will go again. Yeah. I think… I didn't realize before now or not today, but in this last year, how much of my identity… that's kind of, like, being around being this pilgrim. It's been, like, twenty years of doing the Camino. Yeah.

Danny

And…

Ida-Madeleine

I thought, is it just a height, or what is it? And I think now I'm embracing that I am the pilgrim, and I am on this path. I don't know where it's gonna take me… but it's something new. So, yeah, my life is the Camino one, sort of. Yeah.

Danny

Actually, our life is the Camino. Yeah.

Ida-Madeleine

It's just the way. Yeah.

Danny

Just the way. And… the only thing is on the Camino, on the… Camino in Spain, or some other Camino, you are more aware of your camino. That's how I look at it. Because if you look at what happened to us last year before I ever went walking, the second of September. So one year ago, seventh the second of September, I started… my fourth Camino. And all the things the months before, that was really a Camino as well Yeah. and it Yeah. It

Ida-Madeleine

just is. I am on this… three months, what do you call it? Challenge? Yeah.

Danny

We

Ida-Madeleine

were three girls meeting up in the summer, and I had this challenge for myself that I'm like, I'm going to Camino at home for until we meet in October Yeah. I'm just doing this. Okay. Is it this way, or is it that way? What does my heart tell me? And we are going to summon up in October and evaluate the others had some different thing they wanted to work with, and I feel a difference in my life. Yeah.

Danny

And

Ida-Madeleine

but I want to… bring it out and experience or Yep. Inspire other people… to be more present and to… feel their hearts a little bit more.

Danny

Yep… So, I think we have talked about things you wanted to talk

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah. If

Danny

that is correct. Is there something what you really want to say… because now you have the opportunity… to say to your family Camino family or to the people who never walked and are contemplating, perhaps I walk, what you really want to say to them … That…

Ida-Madeleine

our life is all about love, and that the biggest thing is in life is about love. And we have this light inside, and if we think about it with love, we can find the way… Yeah.

Danny

So… I, Ed, I really want to thank you for our good conversation even with the break of, Maggie barging in here in the in my room. And, so, yeah, I really loved it, and… I really… I, yeah, I find it really great that you walked last year with three generations… and then the effect for what it has on your mother. And I'm so curious what it will do for your daughter in her life. for my son, it has infected him. So, we moved this year here to Voloria de Rioja from Sweden, and, we were living for four years. And immediately, he said, yeah. I I'm I will walk this year as well. Yeah. Because he's really longing to walk again, but he has a new job, and he's now near Cologne, and he won't walk again. It is part of him. It has become part of him Yeah. I

Ida-Madeleine

hope it will for my daughter Yep. Yeah. But it is a part of her.

Danny

Already? Yes.

Ida-Madeleine

Yeah.

Danny

I

Ida-Madeleine

think it will stay in her heart because it is a really big impact on such a small child. Yep. Yeah.

Danny

It is. So she will

Ida-Madeleine

bring it in her life, and… I think she will do great. Yeah.

Danny

Awesome. So I really want to thank you very much for the openness in sharing with the fellow pilgrims. I really hope that they can listen the whole episode and get inspired. And, I also want to ask the fellow pilgrims who already walked, please join the podcast as participants like Ida does because the podcast only works when you participate. And for listening, that's awesome, but also participating… At this moment, we speak now. This is the seventh of September twenty twenty six. There are, ninety five people already participating. So I have a lot of interviews to do, and I love it. But I really hope to hit the three hundred sixty five episodes that we can bring the Camino home because then you really can listen to it. And I'm investigating by way a way where we can, the audio in twenty five language. So, Ida, then you speak… fluent Chinese… with all the emotions in it and me too and Portuguese and Spanish and the whole thing. I'm investigating that the technique is there.

The only problem is it is quite expensive. So perhaps I need to do some crowdfunding, but, yeah, so I really thank you for sharing your stories and your thoughts and also the discussion we had about some deep things, to be honest. And thank you very much. Thank

Ida-Madeleine

you…

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Every person who learns the skill of Self-Reflection begins to see people differently.

You may still question WHAT someone DOES.

But the judgment about their INTENTION starts to disappear. And you enter the realm of non-judgement.

And non-judgment is experienced as unconditional love.

That is how REAL change begins.

With you.
Then the people around you.
Your city.
Your province.
Your country.
Your continent.
And eventually,
the world.

That is why ACTIVELY spreading the skill of Self-Reflection, like an unstoppable virus, is SO important.

So please, do NOT just listen, but ACT on this call, and share it with as MANY people and on as MANY platforms as you can, TODAY.

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Thank you for listening, and Buen Camino.