Episode 18 - Niels from Denmark - He could not feel his love until he faced losing her.

Transcript prepared with automatic speech and speaker recognition. Some wording or speaker labels may still need correction.

Danny

Now good day today uh fellow pilgrims Uh yet again a new episode for the inner Camino podcast A self-reflection podcast for pilgrims by pilgrims and Um yeah if you are listening Perhaps you are a future pilgrim or you have already walked or you are walking So that is For the pilgrims and the man who's sitting next to uh opposite of me is Niels uh from Denmark and he's a pilgrim and uh and I'm also pilgrim but we are Both sitting on our butt Talking with each other today and uh niels I'm very pleased to have you in the Podcast We talked before with each other

I and you have a very interesting Story to share with Uh the pilgrims and um could you introduce yourself to your Camino Family yeah

Niels

As you told us, I'm Niels, I'm from Denmark. And I'm 71 years old and I'm a social pedagogue, a social worker. I have been been working at a job center In it for many years and I walked the Camino I walked it my first Camino was Camino del norte going into the Camino Primitivo and Ending in Muxía. Okay,

Danny

and when was that? Which year?

Niels

Was 2016.

Danny

2016 okay yeah and

Niels

then How many one I've been I've been talking about okay

Danny

And how many uh before we go into the details of what you want to share I I know you walked Some more times the Camino how many times you walked it in total then oh

Niels

I Haven't got the Number but I walked the Camino frances twice yeah one time alone And one time my children and I Walked the Camino through Switzerland and I walked the Camino san salvador Vadiniense, Lebaniego, and maybe The most interesting one is the one from uh It's really not a Camino it starts in the Ponferrada, goes to El Acebo de San Miguel on the Francés, and it goes There to Peñalba de Santiago and Monasterio San Pedro de Montes and back to Ponferrada. Okay but the one My heart is closest to is Camino de Manzanal, and maybe Ruta Dragonte. Okay,

Danny

so, and I understood That you also work as hospitalero in the meanwhile as volunteer at albergues

Niels

Yeah, I do. Ave Fénix in Villafranca del Bierzo and Siervas de María in Astorga.

Danny

Okay and uh you are also quite active in Denmark For the Camino Society there I believe Yeah

Niels

we have An organization called Danish Santiago Pilgrims Which Was part of The board And we have A very nice magazine For I'm writing for it We do some Camino Cafes where People wanted to walk The Camino can come Attend, and Do some Films about the Camino And things like that Okay

Danny

so actually After your first Camino in 2016 The Camino becomes a whole part of your life Right

Niels

And that's what My story is about Turning it Into You know It's a bit like I don't know if you know Laurie Dennett Yeah

Danny

that's true It's hard to explain what it is And I really hope that People who listen to this podcast Get a little bit of a feeling About what the Camino is Because it is not just A hiking trip It is so much more

Niels

Laurie Dennett she said something After she walked her first Camino In 1986 That's true

Danny

Oh okay Yeah And

Niels

she said Well The Camino Goes to Santiago But it's not where it ends

Danny

No That's where it starts

Niels

That's where it starts Yeah

Danny

Yeah Yeah You can't say that again Because I walked in 2013 With my son Then 2014 2018 Last year the whole thing And now we live on the Camino I mean So And I don't know where the Journey is going to go At this moment Yeah So for the listeners who are new To the podcast This is not just a podcast about Your blisters and your backpack And the planning And the nice scenery And the food On the Camino Wherever you walk the Camino It is about the inner Camino The things happens to you Things like A very known Phrase on the Camino Is the

Camino provides Which I now extend more and more to The Camino provides what you need And not per se what you want Things like magical moments Deep insights Encounters with other people Things you left behind Things you wanted left behind But you didn't leave behind I have them also And so really the inner Camino And I love it so much to do this Because I'm a pilgrim I'm addicted to the Camino And yeah like I said I live here And yeah so yeah So I really hope and also a big part of this idea to do this is That you can listen to podcasts And be on the Camino again if you have walked and take the vibe Of the Camino home And be a Camino light in your surrounding.

Because I am a strong believer in the meanwhile that the world could use some Camino. So this talks with each other, I find them very important and Beside that, what I'll say, Also what I noticed the stories which I hear when we do these interviews, They are many times mind-blowing and it makes me tear up Many times, giving me goosebumps. So it's really, really, really beautiful to do this. So Niels. Yeah,

Niels

and the thing is, you know, I'm coming back. When I'm coming back for the Camino this time in November, I'm going to do a lecture about calling the Camino Blues.

Danny

Ah, okay, yes. Or even the PCS.

Niels

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny

The post-Camino syndrome. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so many people. Today also there were young pilgrims coming in and also so a little bit like In forties Or something. And they were walking for the first time. And then I always, I cannot, I cannot hold myself back. Then I always say, oh, now you're hooked. Right. And they walked, when they arrive here in Valoria de Rioja, They walked at minimum five days or something or ten. And then they say, yep, we're hooked. So, so funny. Yeah. So what do you want to share, Niels, with your Camino family?

Niels

Yeah, well, this is a story not about the love, Not just about the love of the Camino, I would say. It's also an unconventional story about the love found, Lost and found again.

Danny

And circling around the Camino then, I assume? Yeah.

Niels

Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah.

Danny

Yeah. This

Niels

is all about the Camino.

Danny

Yeah. Okay. So I'm all ears.

Niels

Yeah. Well, the thing is, I was married to my wife Birgit in Denmark in 1996. She was a strong believer and came from a fine Christian family, including two Brothers And a father, all ministers in the Danish Protestant church. I didn't believe in God at the time. Neither was particularly good about emotions. And our love for each other seemed to have gone a bit off track after some years. Neither was she the one who was outspoken about love in big letters. And I didn't really pay attention to the love she really had for me, or for that Matter, Telling her that I had one for her as well.

It wasn't a life with outspoken expressions about love at all. And I missed that without being conscious about it.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So...

Danny

So actually, you were in that situation, and you were vaguely Aware of that?

Niels

No, I wasn't. I just noticed there was something which I didn't like.

Danny

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But

Niels

maybe the real problem was, I wasn't aware of it. But I really couldn't feel my love for her. And I just lost faith in the belief that she was the woman of my life.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

Niels

So... But however, our relationship went on till I really decided to take the bull by The horns And tell her, well, the best thing probably was to get a divorce.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

I just don't love you. I said to her.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

And she was visibly shocked. But she looked me straight into my eyes and told me calmly, but I know you do.

Danny

So she disqualified you in your remark.

Niels

And it hurt me a lot. It really did hurt me, because hadn't she heard what I just told her?

Danny

So... Okay. Okay. Let me get this straight. You told your wife that you don't love her. She said, you do. And then you were hurt and not she. Yeah.

Niels

Well... Yeah, because... But I didn't put up any serious resistance to it.

Danny

Yeah. But

Niels

little did I know at the time, it just wasn't a problem in Relation to my wife. Actually, I had the same kind of problem in showing what I felt for my children.

Danny

Oh, yeah.

Niels

And I didn't know it at the time that my youngest daughter had told my wife, I Really don't Think dad loves me.

Danny

Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. And

Niels

my wife had responded and said, I'm sure he does. He just doesn't know how to express it. Yeah.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

But really, they were both right. I just couldn't feel my love.

Danny

I believe that I've heard it quite a lot from men, Difficulty to share, even know that they Love and then you cannot also not share it if you don't know it. Yeah.

Niels

That's right.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So life went on as it had before. Despite everything, we had a great friendship and two lovely teenage kids With each other. Moreover, she was a good and loving mother to my daughter from an earlier Relationship.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So, but at that time, I had a good friend. I still have him, by the way. And he walked the Camino in 1995. He had written a booklet about it.

Danny

And

Niels

I had this feeling. Well, for many years that I really envied the Muslims That could walk the pilgrimage To Mecca.

Danny

Oh.

Niels

Yeah. And so now I discovered, well, you could do that as Christian too. You can walk to Santiago. Wow. That was something.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So Birgit and I, we talked about walking the Camino for some years, mostly with me. Mm-hmm. In fact, she rejected the possibility of turning the thought into a mutual experience. But not alone. She didn't think her weak back could make such a long walk on those paths. But neither would she be able to get off work for such a long period of time.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

Niels

That was fun. So I realized walking the Camino wouldn't turn it into a mutual experience. And I decided in 2015 to do it myself.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

My reason at the time was just to get a wonderful experience. And as I reached departure, I also thought maybe I could get To think about a new kind Of job. Because after 16 years of working in the same place, I increasingly felt that I lost my Love of the job.

Danny

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Niels

So I chose the Camino del Norte. Really, just because it was the Camino that Seemed to have the fewest pilgrims on. And I was attracted to that thing.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

And from the start, it was an amazing experience. Right from leaving the airport in Biarritz, where I met two other pilgrims, To walk the Norte, too. Mm-hmm. It was the first time for all three of us.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

And there was a shared sense of, you know... An impending adventure, I would say. It was just extraordinary.

Danny

Mm-hmm. The

Niels

whole idea of the 1,000-year-old tradition, crossing the Puente de Santiago To Irun, and Arriving in Spain, oh, by foot, it was amazing.

Danny

Mm-hmm. How much kilometer were you planning to walk then, the first time?

Niels

I was planning to walk all of it. All of it. And maybe to Finisterre as well.

Danny

Okay. So, how much kilometers is that Camino del Norte? You know that?

Niels

Yeah. It's about... All in all, it was probably about 900.

Danny

Okay. Yeah.

Niels

So, but I chose differently when I walked It, because I only walked half of the Norte, And then walked the Primitivo.

Danny

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Niels

So... So, we walked on, and We parted for the day, because I had ordered some accommodation in The medieval Basque town of Hondarribia.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

Close to Iran. And, you know, it was the cherry trees were in full blossom, the Basque houses Shone in Strong colors, and the medieval wall and the surrounding mountain landscape, well, It was So... Well, it was reinforcing this very special mood in me. Yeah.

Danny

I was

Niels

really... Oh, this was fantastic.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Yeah. It was really a full blown adventure for me.

Danny

Mm-hmm. And I

Niels

was completely open to take it all in.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

So, the next day, I met pilgrims. I met the day before. And we continued walking. We found a place to stay in a small church in a tiny The small Basque village, Pasai Donibane.

Danny

The

Niels

flip side, my head was all crazy with joy. And the next day, a small boat brought us to the other side of the small bay. It was amazing.

Danny

Life

Niels

was just beautiful to me. And even when we, after about a week, had to part from each other, Because the two other people, they couldn't continue the walk. The thing continued. And new amazing pilgrims and new amazing experiences. And this happened several times to me for different reasons That I had to change company. But it didn't matter. Because no matter what, the company was great And the experiences were lined up for me. The one bigger than the other.

Danny

Hey, and when you... When you departed from your fellow pilgrims, your family, at that time, I encountered that last year also, Because I could not walk so many kilometers a day anymore. So I had four times coming a family. And for me, it was quite painful to lose my family. And then again, how was that for you? Oh, it

Niels

was very painful. But the new pilgrim family was... Amazing. Maybe even better. So every time...

Danny

So actually, you were looking forward to lose your family again.

Niels

No, no, I never was. I never was. They were all great. They were all really great.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

But some of the greatest experiences to me, They seemed to be the churches.

Danny

Like

Niels

the cathedral in Oviedo was great. And another one, much smaller, Also called the San Salvador, from the beginning of the 10th century, On the monastery ground in Valdediós. Oh, that was so beautiful. And it's... I just couldn't believe it. But the biggest experience came to me With the small pre-Christian church, Santa Eulalia de Bóveda, In the small antique village of Boveda de Mera. It's just after the... Before Primitivo going into the Camino. I

Danny

remember

Niels

arriving to that small town In the siesta. I had walked four to five k's off Camino Along a green and winding, but still shady, tree-lined road.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

The sun was out, And it was the village laying complete silence in

Danny

the siesta. And

Niels

it was impossible for me to spot the small shrine I was looking for. I'd seen it posted on the internet on a local place, But I just couldn't find it. I could see the church in the town, But that was... It was not the church I was looking for. I just knew it had to be somewhere. Of course, there were some stones The local priest had discovered in 1915, While he was busy plowing the ground For some new vegetables in his garden.

Danny

And

Niels

then upon the excavation, A couple of years later, It turned out to be a small, Two-floor sanctuary from the 3rd century Without its upper floor.

Danny

Yeah, unbelievable, eh?

Niels

It was a... But the thing is, As I walked through this beautiful restored village, I took notice of an open gate to the... To a gate in a small garden. I knocked on it and saw a man at a computer on a desk, And tried using gestures and a few Spanish words To let him know what I was looking for. And he didn't understand a word. And he didn't say a word to me, But he nodded towards me, Stood up and took a bunch of keys, And gave me a sign to follow him.

Danny

So I

Niels

took off my backpack And did as he had told me to. Next to the town's church was an old fence And with a gate, And it had a couple of steps leading down.

Danny

The

Niels

man unlocked the gate With a key from his bunch And filled with anticipation Of following him down the steps.

Danny

Yeah. To

Niels

me, it seems like the entrance to the holy of the holies.

Danny

Okay.

Niels

So I could not be certain what it was I was entering.

Danny

But

Niels

in front of us was a small ancient building of stone, Partly green with overgrown moss.

Danny

Then

Niels

the old wooden door was opened. An overwhelming smell of stale dampness drifted towards us, And a magnificent room revealed itself in the dark. Okay. But you should have seen the walls. The walls were filled with paintings of bright-colored birds.

Danny

Okay.

Niels

And the sight hit me like, well, yet another revelation.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

A revelation of great, great magnitude. I just couldn't be prepared for what I saw, Even though I hadn't read about it. It was so real, so natural, so beautiful.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

Niels

These paintings hadn't even been restored. They were just like they were painted almost 2,000 years ago.

Danny

So?

Niels

So it was difficult to understand. I was standing there looking at an almost hidden treasure.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

It was like I was the first person in 2,000 years having to look at these Historic Paintings, this old church.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Then suddenly, I was left alone. Then suddenly I was left alone in the room with a few words of broken English about Closing the door behind me when I go out.

Danny

Okay.

Niels

Wow! And I just sat there all by myself and looking at these walls. I started to cry.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So, what a privilege, I thought, to be trusted, to be Left alone With this. It was, it was great. So but they were all amazingly beautiful churches there were mountains mountains Villages people Landscapes they were all so magnificent that we just couldn't believe it yeah

Danny

so

Niels

Actually Lost count of how many times I cried yeah

Danny

okay yeah but you Know that's what you're telling About that church what I find so special on the Camino and is That I call it magical places Yeah

Niels

yeah you arrive

Danny

at the place and then something is happening with you and I Really Cannot under describe it and I don't understand it by the way uh but it Is overwhelming and Sometimes it is so overwhelming you cannot hold back your tears and Sometimes you just Flabbergasted you cannot say anything anymore I I I I've been in several of These spots Yeah and to be honest uh and then I don't want to make it special so don't get me wrong but the Place where I'm living now In valoria de rioja um people are reporting to Me that they perceive a similar experience When they come in either

in our home or and not because I'm so Special but it is to do With the spot and also the church where the saint Santo Domingo de la Casada is uh baptized and where he's born so

Niels

and

Danny

And yeah and it sounds so strange because I'm an I.t dude you know I'm beta from for all the Way you know and then you are entering these Type of places which you say the church where you were into and yeah It's overwhelming but you have Encountered more of these places you just mentioned yeah

Niels

Yeah yeah yeah well I think it's something to do with the Camino you know the the The feeling of The Camino yeah

Danny

yeah it

Niels

wouldn't be the same if you uh went to a church In uh in uh in in every Other place I believe

Danny

yeah that's true yeah that's true I that that's I Completely agree with that Because uh uh yeah I've been in italy in in astonishing beautiful Churches Where I was flabbergasted and impressed about the church itself But I never felt that kind of Okay here it comes again kind of a magical experience yeah

Niels

that's right Yeah

Danny

yeah

Niels

I agree Yeah I agree completely yeah

Danny

but

Niels

I I think uh What really hit me most that was the encounters With other people yeah

Danny

you

Niels

know pilgrims And local people yeah

Danny

and

Niels

above all the helpfulness You know the love the spirit and All these kind of things yeah and I remember Arriving in santander after having made a small Detour to Picos de Europa. I had a wish Following alternative route uh out of the Santander The coastal path

Danny

this

Niels

was before it was coming to Have a mobile maps and mobile phones

Danny

So

Niels

I couldn't find the path and I asked an italy couple uh Where luckily he spoke some english And uh but unfortunately he didn't know about the coastal parts but you Know what he said We'll ask the churro man over there. And he Pointed his cane toward the food cart. So I walked with the couple to the To take very tiny steps Because they were very old Ah

Danny

okay yeah The

Niels

old man asked the man in the cart no he didn't know about the coastal path But hey wait a minute I checked my phone and he had a phone with a map on Oh And he told me that and he had a customer to wait to be served because he had to Check this out Uh-huh

Danny

He

Niels

checked and then explained the route in Spanish to the elderly man.

Danny

That

Niels

didn't bring me much further. But then the man told me, come on, we follow you on your way. And the three of us walked slowly ahead a couple of k's, you know, Till he pointed towards the path with his cane and wished me buen Camino. And that was amazing. I think, wow. Wow.

Danny

Yeah. Being

Niels

followed by this man, he had to walk two k's At a route he shouldn't even be walking.

Danny

Oh, wow.

Niels

Wow. I thought that was amazing.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

Niels

And later when I needed a rest, I take off my shoes and start to dry my feet and Check my blisters. People came to me and offered their help. Oh, you need Compeed? Oh, yeah. You can have some of mine, things like that.

Danny

And

Niels

when I developed shin splints, a German doctor wrote me a prescription So I'll get the right painkillers at a pharmacy.

Danny

Okay.

Niels

That's the spirit.

Danny

Yeah. So all these moments of Camino provide.

Niels

Yeah, that's

Danny

right. Yeah.

Niels

They're just there when you need it.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, for me, I don't know where it starts. Now you talk about it. Because my wife and me, we, we have a saying, something is taking care of us, Which caused me to end up here in Valoria and starting the inner Camino house, Inviting pilgrims in our home. And, and perhaps now, now you say that perhaps that whole thing About the trust that you are being helped when needed, perhaps it started on my First Camino. Now you, I need to think about it, by the way. Yeah. So that's interesting.

Niels

Yeah.

Danny

Yeah. So, and where were you then at, you were past Santander?

Niels

Yeah. Yeah. Santander. That's, well, about, I think, one quarter of the way. Yeah. Well, the shin splints, they became so severe that I felt I couldn't walk any Further. So when we arrived one late morning, there's a small seaside village by the Sea. Uh, I was walking down the beginning of the village along some houses and noticed The sign on the gate to one of the houses saying, welcome pilgrim, come on inside.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Wow. That did light up a hope in me. Maybe there was an albergue placed here, making it possible to end my walk of the Day. No, but unfortunately no albergue. But the woman of the house asked me if I'd like to have a break and enjoy some lunch.

Danny

Mm-hmm. And she was just

Niels

about to make something for herself. Oh, please, yes. Oh, you just have a beer while you're waiting. Oh, gee, thanks. And soon she had prepared, finished a lovely lunch. She served for us both and sat down across me.

Danny

Yeah. And just

Niels

before sitting down, she spoke out, oh, you look like you need another Beer.

Danny

So you could not walk anymore afterwards.

Niels

So one day. Yeah. And after eating, she told me about how she had walked in the Camino several times As a mentor for troubled youngsters.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

And suddenly two Swedish pilgrims had spent the night before Past the house and said, hey, Niels, what are you doing there? And so they came up and had lunch too.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So the Swedish women continued the walk. And the hostess, she told me. Yeah. If I wanted a place to stay. There was a nice pension 200 meters down the path.

Danny

Yeah. And if

Niels

you go in there, I think you just tell the owner that she had sent me.

Danny

Yeah. Okay.

Niels

So I did. And I had a very nice hotel room for myself with my own balcony With a view.

Danny

Wow. Okay.

Niels

Including the breakfast next morning. It was just the price of a private albergue.

Danny

Gee. Wow. And on the way

Niels

out of the door. The landlady put a lunch bag with a bocadillo, some fruits and a soft drink in My hand, supplying me with a Buen Camino.

Danny

Wow. Yeah.

Niels

And I just, wow. That was incredible. And in Campiello, the last real village before ending the hospital route and Primitivo, there were two albergues right across each other. One of them was famous because of its owner, who was known for shouting and Being tough on some pilgrims. He was known for being tough on some pilgrims.

Danny

Well,

Niels

they had good food. So I decided to stay there.

Danny

There was

Niels

only me and a group of 12 Spanish pilgrims. And they were having a party

Danny

for

Niels

dinner at the restaurant. So this owner, she told me to follow her to the table of the Spanish pilgrims. And then she shouted loudly in Spanish. Listen, guys. This man is a pilgrim from Denmark. He's going to sit. He's going to sit at your table. You better take good care of him, right?

Danny

You were located with Spanish pilgrims?

Niels

Yeah. Only one of them spoke a little bit of English.

Danny

Okay. Yeah.

Niels

But even then, they took really good care of me. And the following days, when we met each other every once in a while, it was all Hugs and, hey, have a snack. And things like that.

Danny

It was great. So, Niels. Yeah. Actually, you were covered by love the whole road. Yeah.

Niels

I really was. And I had that feeling as well.

Danny

Okay. Wow.

Niels

I think the greatest example of that was one small hotel in Noja. And I went to Nocha. And it was very... It had been a long day, And I'd been walking with one. And I've been walking. She was walking ahead of me because I couldn't walk that fast Because of my legs. And I came to this three-star hotel just across the church. And I didn't have the strength to walk any further. It was 7 p.m. at the time.

Danny

Yeah. So,

Niels

the hotel was owned by two sisters. And one of them came to the hotel after I had called. I called the phone number on display at the hotel door to check me in. She asked me about my walk. And it turned out to be a longer chat, which ended with her inviting me down to Have dinner with her in her home.

Danny

Okay.

Niels

Together with her husband and her disabled child.

Danny

Uh-huh.

Niels

I had a delicious paella and wine while she was talking to me and feeding her Child as well.

Danny

Okay. Wow.

Niels

Wow. So, at dinner, she offered me several gifts, showed me a movie about a place I Just had to visit on the Camino. Mm-hmm. It was very late when she asked me because I had inquired about a mass in the church The evening before. Would I be interested in attending mass at the local monastery the next morning? Sure. Sure, I would. Well, then I could go with her parents.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So, next morning, I drove out to this monastery. So, I drove out to this monastery with her parents and her. And there were six nuns and four other service goers Apart from us attending the service.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

I just had to get communion, my benefactor told me, and a small chat with The nuns.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Tell them about why you're doing the Camino, she said to me. So, I sat down in front of an iron grill, talking to the nuns on the other side. Just... Just 10 minutes. And then they brought me presents as well, among other things. A huge box with homemade cookies. The next night had turned into crumbs after having been thrown and shaken in my Backpack all day.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

And the price per stay in the hotel was 35 euros, including breakfast And dinner as well. I just couldn't believe it.

Danny

No. No.

Niels

But the next day... That was a wonderful walk on the Camino to the huge albergue of Güemes. And just as I was sitting, enjoying my dinner with one pilgrim, I had walked with Her the last few days and had left behind. Then the hospitalero of the Alberta Shouted, Anybody called Niels? So, I just raised my head, answering, yes, yes. What did... What did he mean? He came to me and said, well, there seems to be somebody visiting you. I just didn't have any idea who could it be. And he pointed towards the door. I walked across the room and I noticed it was the other sister and the father of Them both.

Danny

Uh-huh.

Niels

I was speechless. One thing I didn't want for me, I'm sure I had to remember to pay the Hotel.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

Niels

I saluted them. And when the sister said, could this be yours? And then she opened her hand and showed me my mobile charger. Oh,

Danny

wow.

Niels

Oh, I tried not to show my tears when I took my charger. I was whispering thanks and I hugged them both. And I just... It was that amazing. They drove 20 k's up in the car to give me my mobile Charger. I mean, I had to go back again. Whoa. And if that isn't love, I don't know.

Danny

Yeah. And then... And that all comes to you, to the man who doesn't feel love.

Niels

Right. Right. But that... I didn't... I didn't think about that at the time.

Danny

No.

Niels

But the fact that it was just... Just wasn't nice hotels on the Camino. There was also many wonderful... Albergues were just... Not... Wasn't the question of being nice places. But there was a sense of fellowship among the pilgrims that came together in perfect Harmony.

Danny

Yeah. There

Niels

was once in Santa Cruz de Bezana, where the owner and her Husband treated us pilgrims. And each and every one of us was Christ himself, I'd say.

Danny

Yeah. There

Niels

was a message of love in her way of treating her pilgrims. That you sense in her manners, her smile, her words, and her food.

Danny

Yeah. The

Niels

dinner. The dinner was like the last supper. The solemn atmosphere resting above it.

Danny

Yeah. Wow.

Niels

Amazing. And David at the albergue in Bodenaya, he was really something else. He was the only hospitalero present at the small donativo albergue. It was a Donativo albergue. And he waited for us pilgrims. Pilgrims at the door offering us a soft drink or a cup of tea, telling each of Us as we arrived what to expect, what the place was about.

Danny

And we should

Niels

treat it as it was our own home.

Danny

And

Niels

all the pilgrims was our family. Everything was ours in the house. Go to the fridge. Go to the snack bar. Go to the soft drinks and beer closet. Everything is yours.

Danny

Wow.

Niels

He taught us how to pour up cider, played game with us, and had a lecture about what We should expect the next couple of days on the Camino. And then he served us a three-course dinner with wine.

Danny

Wow.

Niels

I don't know how he had the time to do all this.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

While he was talking to the pilgrims all along. He told us, here we do have a mutual agreement when to get up in the morning. We just have to agree together about what time. And he told us to leave our clothes we wish to be washed downstairs. Next morning, we were woken up with a low version of Ave Maria on the loudspeakers, The smell of freshly brewed coffee from downstairs. And coming down, the clothes of each person, each pilgrim to be Washed the night before was washed.

Danny

Oh, wow.

Niels

Carefully folded and placed in separate piles on separate chairs by Breakfast Was waiting for us.

Danny

Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Niels

For the rest of the Camino, every time each of us met anybody from David's family That day, there was a sense of community.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Love, hugs, and greetings.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Yeah. It was just amazing. But, you know, there were albergues which were, you know, much less Serviced than were very... Primitive, I would say.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

Low cost. I would have run away from those places before the Camino.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

But here, there was something else, especially the Monasterio de Santa María in Zenarruza.

Danny

Mm-hmm. It

Niels

was isolated out in the middle of nowhere in the Basque region. But the monastery itself, the buildings, the cloister, the church in which we are About, About 10 pilgrims all by ourselves, there were six monks we barely saw. Such a holy place. Yeah.

Danny

When there

Niels

was Vesper, there was a mass and pilgrim's blessings.

Danny

Yeah. But

Niels

it was so cold that you were froze during the night.

Danny

Yeah. And

Niels

the food was terrible.

Danny

Oh, really? I

Niels

remember having some old bread for dinner, and the next Morning asking the monk Where the... The bread for breakfast is. He just told me there was bread the night before. You have to eat that.

Danny

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Niels

If that had been for the Camino, I would say, I never come there again.

Danny

Yeah. But

Niels

this, it was amazing. This was the spirit of the Camino.

Danny

Yeah. And it

Niels

was an experience in humility, I would say.

Danny

Oh, okay. Mm-hmm.

Niels

Yeah. So I came... I went... I went on the Primitivo instead of finishing the Norte,

Danny

because

Niels

I knew the Stages were Tougher, you know, but there wouldn't be that far between possible Accommodations. And my leg, my shin splints, and my blisters, they were horrible.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So I have walked all the Caminos, which has almost been as great as this one. Mm-hmm. But really, nothing. Nothing beats the first one. I mean, maybe it's because I really didn't expect anything for it. Yeah. I didn't know what to expect. Yeah,

Danny

that's true.

Niels

I still believed in myself this was going to be one of the biggest experiences in My life.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

And I really tell you, every step on that Camino was a revelation.

Danny

Yeah. But also in pain, because you're... And these experiences... You had the shin... You had the shin splint all the time.

Niels

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was on medicine all the time.

Danny

Yeah. Too

Niels

much, in fact, but that's what it was.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

And, you know, there were bad experiences as well, but they couldn't destroy my Happiness, Because I just knew the next thing on the Camino would be amazing.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

Niels

I was open for anything to happen. Yeah. Yeah. And I just determined to have a good time.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

But it was those incredible examples of neighborly love. That's what we say in the Danish, you know, neighborly love.

Danny

Yeah. Love

Niels

for the one who just happens to be next to you and needs a hand.

Danny

Yeah. There's also a passage in the Bible where Jesus says something I don't... I'm not very strong in the Bible, but somebody mentioned

Niels

it. You know, the Samaritan, you know, yeah.

Danny

Yeah, to take care of the strangers coming in your house.

Niels

That's true, yeah. Yeah.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

You know, I remember Jato once told me That his grandmother said She took all in, Like, came and asked for dinner in her private house. Yeah. Pilgrims or whoever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny

And

Niels

her husband said, why are you inviting them in for? They're not pilgrims. And she just said, you just don't know if Christ in disguise.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So it was so much, it crossed my mind that I just, this love was so Much, I just had to... I just had to do anything in return. I felt I needed to pay back, you know. Yeah. So then I began to realize how I could pay that love forward to other pilgrims. I was on the lookout of a pilgrim on the path. Maybe it was in need of something.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah.

Niels

Yeah. It didn't amount to much though, but every little thing on the way I could do for Others Turned into a victory in my heart.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Yeah. And it dawned on me that the greatest lesson of the Camino Wasn't the neighborly love I Had received. No. The greatest thing was being able to give my love to others.

Danny

Yeah. So actually you went on the Camino where you were Not capable for yourself to show the Love and feel it. And you were saturated so much in love. You could not do anything else than start giving it to people. And actually, if you do that, you also feel it. No, I

Niels

didn't feel it at the time. I wasn't aware of a feeling I was feeling it.

Danny

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Niels

Of course I was starting to feel it, but I wasn't aware. I didn't think about it.

Danny

Yeah. Oh. Oh. Yeah.

Niels

Yeah. Yeah. I was in daily contact with my wife, but I couldn't explain the feeling inside of me. I told her about the experiences, but I Really couldn't tell her about the most important Thing. It was still so pure in form for some reason, you know.

Danny

Yeah. Yeah. I

Niels

just couldn't understand it.

Danny

Let

Niels

alone put it into words. Mm-hmm.

Danny

Mm-hmm. But

Niels

I could feel my excitement. I could feel my joy, and actually, I could feel my feelings,

Danny

My emotions.

Niels

Yeah. But when I finally reached Santiago, the day before there had been rain All day, and The first real rain on the whole Camino.

Danny

Okay.

Niels

But when I finally reached Santiago and found a seat in the cathedral, I just Couldn't make Up my feelings. And I managed to get there. You know, it was like my heart was way behind me on the Camino.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

And I hardly, I couldn't experience the Pilgrim mass at all.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

And I just couldn't understand why. I went and walked around Santiago the next couple of days with friends and Pilgrims, You know.

Danny

Mm-hmm. It

Niels

was such a huge disappointment to me, and I just couldn't understand.

Danny

It

Niels

was not the thing I had expected after the most wonderful of experiences Out in the Camino. So I went around to soak in the beautiful city, had a dreamlike dinner in Mama Paisa, Where I had dinner in every Camino I had come to in Santiago since then. And in its own, it was yet another beautiful experience. And slowly, in some way, I returned to myself and began to realize that my Camino, Now our, has likely been the greatest experience of my life.

Danny

Then I

Niels

attended another pilgrim mass in the cathedral. And while I was sitting there, I felt the tears rolling down my cheeks, And suddenly I could feel that I had arrived in Santiago.

Danny

Okay. So, wow.

Niels

Yeah. And then I was ready to walk to Finisterra. Yeah.

Danny

And

Niels

insights quite slowly found their normal places within me again.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know,

Danny

you know, I know this Camino

Niels

walk of mine, it Wasn't the, It's not one of the seven wonders of the world or anything near to it. In fact, it was just... It was nothing much more than an ordinary experience, but it was mine.

Danny

It

Niels

was very honest. It was deeply felt in my heart and very precious to me. It will forever be something I will hold very close to my heart, to

Danny

me.

Niels

But at the same time, I really didn't feel proud of it either, Because I know what kind I've been Realizing. And later, I think, oh, you've been a horrible human being in My whole life leading up to this. So, I really couldn't feel proud of it. Well, I think, when I think about that, the Thing of feeling in my heart, I think that there's a great Irish singer-songwriter called Eleanor McEvoy. Okay. She isn't really a great artist, pure technical speaking. Haven't got that great voice or something. But she's written a very personal love song to me, One of the greatest love songs of all time. And it's called, You Hear Better Song Than This.

Because it's about basing your love on your genuine feelings And being satisfied with what you got.

Danny

It might

Niels

be as good as it gets. And nothing more. But,

Danny

to

Niels

me, it's the best, right?

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

It's expression of sheer purity. And that's how I feel about my Camino.

Danny

So, you continue walking to Monasterio Finisterra?

Niels

No. Yeah. That was the idea, but I didn't. Because, well, the walk was relaxing. Very relaxing. Compared to the Camino. But when I reached Olveiroa, about 30 k before Muxía, That night, I talked, as usual, to my wife. Two days earlier, she had told me she felt a little bit sluggish. And the day before, I haven't been able to reach her.

Danny

She was just

Niels

tired, she told me afterwards. But then, she could tell me that she had been seeing her doctor, Who had sent her to the hospital for a scanning. And it had turned out she was diagnosed with cancer. It was a tumour in the liver, which later turned out to originate from her Bile duct.

Danny

Okay, wow, okay.

Niels

So, I told her I was sorry. I was so sorry. I tried to comfort her, and telling her I would book a plane as soon as possible to Come home. But in reality, still. I still... I just don't know how to act emotionally. I was still self-preoccupied with my own experiences on the Camino, That I had difficulty really feeling the care I had for her. Really, I couldn't feel in my heart that I was sorry for her. But still, it was... It was the longest 30 k's on the Camino the next day to my sheer.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

I was feeling sorry, and not feeling sorry.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

The young German woman I had walked with earlier on the Camino had Written a text to me. I had met her in Santiago as well, and we should both be going to Finisterre. And she texted me and said, well, I can't meet you because I'm in Mochia, And I can't go to Finisterre because my boyfriend has become seriously ill. And she had to go to Santiago next morning to fly back to Germany. And I was telling her, that's the same thing with me. Well, I'm in Mochia, and I can't go further on to Finisterre. I had to go back as

Danny

well.

Niels

Wow. That was... That was really something. So we met, and we had a dinner together with the third person we both Knew, The pilgrim, and we went afterwards out to the shrine, Out on the cliffside next to the water in Mochia. And there we sat in the sunset, and it was complete silence. And it was so great just to feel that you didn't have to explain anything Because those people, they knew you.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So, but, yeah. I returned back home. My wife was... My wife was so deeply depressed and not all on herself. I was just sorry. Sorry that I couldn't feel I was sorry for her. It was impossible to explain to her how wonderful my walk had been. That was what I thought. I can't explain it because... Especially because I partially had begun to realize That she was the most important person. In my life.

Danny

Yeah. And

Niels

I couldn't even tell her about the greatest experience in my life.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

It was, you know, it was not an enthusiasm That could find a place in this time that followed When she was that ill.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So...

Danny

And she was so ill that she could not recover?

Niels

Yes. Yes. And we hoped she could recover, but we knew it was serious. Mm-hmm.

Danny

And we

Niels

hoped she would be able to recover.

Danny

No. She

Niels

went through a chemo therapy. But I think all this was an indication That I hadn't really acknowledged the full extent of my love for her. If I had, it probably wouldn't have been so crucial To tell her about my Camino. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But when some months later, Eventually gave her a try after all, She barely replied in an almost indifferent way. And in that moment, It dawned on me why it hadn't actually been appropriate To even ask her. Neither before, at that moment, or later. Mm-hmm. And it just, not just because she was ill, But because what I really, What I gained from the Camino was the realization That the most wonderful thing in the world Was be able to give love, give one's love to other people.

Danny

Mm-hmm. And

Niels

that was a joke to tell her, Because she was the most love-giving person I knew about. Yeah.

Danny

I knew.

Niels

It would be like teaching Mother Teresa about love.

Danny

Mm-hmm.

Niels

She showered love on everyone in her vicinity. Mm-hmm. That's how she was like. No one turned to her in vain of care.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

And remember, We once had an argument about raising our children During which I had said that, after all, One might sometimes need to scold them.

Danny

Mm-hmm. She

Niels

had just looked at me, Shaking her head and disagreed, Saying that you just have to give them love. And she added, No one has ever been harmed by too much love.

Danny

Mm-hmm . Yeah, yeah.

Niels

Yeah. Yeah. Yep, there is very much love there. Yeah, yeah, that's what I said to her. And she said that to me, But slowly it dawned upon me How much she really meant to me Without me actually becoming consciously aware of it. Mm-hmm. It wasn't until the day at the doctor's office After hospital when we were told That they were stopping treatment, Mm-hmm. Because she's no longer responding adequately to it.

Danny

But

Niels

the reality of the situation finally dawned upon me.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

It was just when I could see that I actually was on my way to losing her, I became aware of and being able to feel my love for her. The feeling that day was so intense that I couldn't bear to stay with It. I rushed away from her and her friend who was there at the same time Into the parking lot where I couldn't hold back Some fit of violence, something that simply wouldn't stop.

Danny

And

Niels

right then, right then, I realized how much I loved her. Really, I could feel my love for not just her, But my late mother as well, to whom I had since my early childhood Also had rejected my love. Really. Right there, out of a sudden, I could feel my emotions.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Yeah. But I couldn't tell her because she was in that state of mind she was.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So there was still another option at a different hospital Involving an alternate form of therapy. But in the months that followed, I tried to find room to tell her That I loved her. But with that many people in the house trying to help her, It was difficult. It was difficult to find time and room.

Danny

As

Niels

well, it was difficult for me just to say it. So four months passed during which her condition gradually became worse. Then we contacted the new hospital to ask why nothing happened. And it turned out they had forgotten her.

Danny

Oh, really?

Niels

Yeah.

Danny

Sorry?

Niels

They'd forgotten that they should have her in treatment.

Danny

No. Are you kidding?

Niels

No. No, that's right.

Danny

Okay. Wow. That's.

Niels

Yeah.

Danny

Whoa. You could sue them. That's.

Niels

Wow. Well, it was an alternative therapy, you know, And not an alternate option, you know.

Danny

Yeah. But still, I mean.

Niels

Yeah. Yeah. It was horrible.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

But we were at that point, maybe we really didn't do anything Because it was too late at that point. Yeah. But, you know, she was very disappointed about how they Treated her at the first hospital as well, Which, in fact, was where she had worked herself as a nurse for 27 years. Yeah.

Danny

They

Niels

promised her a steady contact person. And that person she got was the best researcher of the country. But she didn't have the time to be a contact person for her. So every time she had to have a talk with. With the doctor, it was a new contact person.

Danny

I am.

Niels

And Birgit hated that.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

So for some weeks, it was like she gained in strength To finish what she was necessary for her to finish. She would like to visit the grave of her parents one last time. She knew this was about to finish. And she. She liked to visit her bank to perfect things for me to take over her Things. So there wouldn't be any problems for me when time would come. So she did all that and she would do it alone.

Danny

Yeah. How old was she at that time?

Niels

64.

Danny

Okay.

Niels

Then it was that she drifted away after that. And when her brother asked her if she was afraid to die, she just said no. I'm not afraid to die. I'm just so disappointed.

Danny

Yeah. About what?

Niels

Implied the disappointment with the hospital's treatment.

Danny

Okay.

Niels

So Christmas night, she was just about to leave. And I hadn't been able to tell her about my love for her.

Danny

And I was.

Niels

Oh, I felt horrible about it. So I tried to get her to have Christmas night. But she didn't react. I cried myself to sleep that night,

Danny

afraid

Niels

I wouldn't be able to tell her. But she survived the night. All the next day, I couldn't think about anything else but the fact that I had to Get to her when we would have to go to bed. So in the night came, I managed to get her in bed and she Immediately tried to go to sleep. I laid down beside her and snuggled right. Up to her. Then carefully touched her shoulder. She reacted slightly to it without turning around. She didn't have the strength to do so.

Danny

Then

Niels

I managed to stammer out, I love you.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Still without moving. She answered. I know you do.

Danny

Gee.

Niels

Yeah.

Danny

Wow. And

Niels

that moment. I was happy.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Although I knew the only thing on her mind was her preparation to die.

Danny

Yeah. But

Niels

she actually held on for another month. But it wasn't really possible to get in contact with her. At all, I think. It was very difficult.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

A few hours during the day, she didn't sleep. She always sat in the couch in our living room and looked either out the window at The garden. Or at a picture. Or at the picture next to it of the resurrection of Christ,

Danny

An

Niels

abstract painting by her sister-in-law who had died of Cancer as well a couple of years before. Yeah. And two months after her death, I asked our children if they would like to have a Walk with the Camino with me for the mother. And so they liked to. And we walked the full Camino, Frances, together from St. Jean that summer.

Danny

Yeah. So did that change for you To get to be together with your children, then walking, but also that you finally Could say to your wife, I love you and experience the love and Giving love to other people, did it change you? What kind of change you experienced? Well,

Niels

it seemed to have unlocked things within me. Yeah. Yeah. I had in some way healed old wounds, you know,

Danny

wounds

Niels

that Birgit's Love for me hadn't been sufficient to heal. At the same time, the Camino, if not absolutely decisive, was Certainly a major factor in me Rediscovering my love for her.

Danny

It

Niels

had taught me to see her in the right light and discover The movement along a new path, where I could find and feel my love For her.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Furthermore, I knew that my Camino walk and her love for me and the Way she had been had given me something that I should learn from.

Danny

Yeah. You know, what just crossed my mind, here in the inner Camino house, we talk Quite a lot about non-judgment. Yeah. And then, if you live in a life of, in a state of being Of non-judgment, and that is perceived By the other, because if you have no judgment, there is no expectation, and Non-judgment and no expectation is perceived by the other person as Unconditional love, and actually your wife, she had no Judgment about the fact that you could not express your love. And she had no expectation that you Should be able to do it, a must do it, and then you, there's Such a beautiful story about a person from Inherently, from within, automatically lives in a life Of non-judgment.

Niels

Yeah.

Danny

Yeah.

Niels

Yeah.

Danny

Yeah. You know, what also crossed my mind, while you were telling, At the moment that you came back, and with your wife, and that you tried to say, I Love you, and it didn't work out, and you need to wait, and struggle With it all the time, all the time, the story of the The Little Soul and the Sun is a parable for kids. For young people, for your kids, to read them together, which, as a father or A mother, for your kids, as a story from Neale Donald Walsch. He wrote the books, Conversations with God, and The Little Soul and the Sun is a beautiful story.

It is about a young soul in heaven, And he could only, the soul could only experience love and Happiness. Yeah. And he had heard, he wanted to experience that he was love And the light. So, at a certain point, he went to God and said, yeah, I want to experience what I Am, love and light. How can I do that? And God told this little soul, I don't know the story wordly, so I Give it in my words. Yeah. So, God said to the little soul, you can. Only experience what you are to become what you're not.

Niels

Okay.

Danny

So, and that is, no, she wanted to experience Forgiveness. That was the story. And then, and that's exactly the same, by the way. That's why I was confused. So, it was about forgiveness, and she wanted to experience Forgiveness. And God said, yeah, but then you need. Something to forgive. And there were a lot of souls. They heard them both talking. So, a lot of souls were gathering around God and the little soul. And then one of the souls stepped forward. And God said, I can send you to earth to experience that you forgive Somebody. Yeah, but then somebody needs to do something to you that you can forgive.

And one of the souls stepped forward and said to the little soul and God, I can do That. And the little soul was really happy, but was not aware of the fact that being back On earth, the lovely soul would do horrible things to the little soul. Otherwise, you cannot forgive.

Niels

Yeah.

Danny

Okay. But

Niels

let me, can we have a break? Because. Yeah, yeah. I need to go out to the toilet. Okay.

Danny

Okay. Okay, thank you. So, Niels, you're back again. So, yeah, I just want to finish the story quite quickly. So, and so the little soul was really happy that he could go To earth to experience forgiving somebody. And actually, it is about when you experience what you're not, you can Experience what you are. If you experience that you cannot love. Then. You can experience that you can love.

Niels

That's

Danny

why I was thinking all about all the time about that story, because it's The opposite. And it was the same, like with my mother, I had a very troublesome relationship with My mother and for years and years. And when I was 45, I finally could look at her without Judgment. And then I really started to understand the role she played in my life. And I started to understand the sacrifices she had done to be for that.

Niels

And

Danny

before that, I never understood. And this story, we're telling that for you, to the dead moment, not possible to Feel the love and show the love. And finally, you went on the Camino. You were insaturated by love by everybody all over the place. Everybody was helping you. And that opened the tin can. And finally, you could go to the place and experience. That you are love and can give love yeah so that is how I Uh resonates with your story okay yeah Nice yeah yeah

Niels

well I could just say that uh Well since then I I Think it was a matter of The release of a love within Me yeah

Danny

sometimes

Niels

yeah yeah

Danny

so that changed Your life profoundly In every way I can imagine and who are you are you still Is it still possible for you To feel the love and express love to others yeah

Niels

yeah I I I believe so It's It's not that easy because I really have to You know put myself together it doesn't come Easily to me you know I have to pull myself together and Be aware of it

Danny

Yeah but the thing what's so interesting perhaps we only think That we need to do something because Your wife knew that she loved that you loved her without you being capable to Show it in a way that you experienced that you could show the love so Perhaps People feel your love, that you're open, nonjudgmental, and feel your Love Without you being aware that they feel you loving the other person Yeah because Because

Niels

that

Danny

could be and yeah so this Is what you wanted to share with Fellow pilgrims Niels yeah

Niels

I could tell you a bit about My you know pilgrim work Three years ago I had my first job as a Hospitaller at the albergues in Astorca in Villa Apart from my writing, I Write a lot for Danish magazine, the Pilgrim. I think this is the Pilgrim work I love most, Especially at Jato's place in Ave Fénix in Villafranca. It's been hard for me when I've been there.

Danny

Once

Niels

I was Subject to Brutal assault, and Jato's tough on his hospitaleros As well, but the physical Conditions are not good. But Jato himself is a wonderful man from Another world. I can Confidently say that he is a great man. He's one of the most wonderful people I have ever met. And his attitude towards pilgrims is remarkably like my own. I won't even go so far as to say I love him.

Danny

And

Niels

I will also say that I love helping pilgrims.

Danny

Yeah, I can imagine that. Just before we started Recording, I also mentioned That we now here and actually, you could call me in hospital arrow, Because there were in estimation around 4000 pilgrims in four months that We started four Months ago.

Niels

And

Danny

then people come in and yeah, It's hard to describe. They come in and they look confused because they yeah, what we do is Totally different than Anything else. So far I've seen, and so open it is their home for a moment, like you told the Story, You know, everything in the place with that story that it's similar here. You see and you feel the I would keep saying The non judgment towards each other. And then openness because of that, and the no expectations because of that and the Deep Connection you have with people. And there is so much love, but this is not the love, you know, In love, love.

It is the broad love, like you have for Your acceptance, love.

Niels

For acceptance, love.

Danny

Yeah, acceptance love. Yeah. That's good. What? That's a really good word. Yeah. Not for your car. That's a very stupid example. But you know, It is the unconditional acceptance of another person. Right. But still, if they do things which you don't want them to do, they won't have That. Can harm another be able to uh intervene in that in a loving way so Yeah and you have been you you Do hospitalero so I I suspect that you did you know what I'm talking about

Niels

yeah yeah And

Danny

and

Niels

I was knocked down once as a hospital arrow oh

Danny

you was Knocked down once yeah

Niels

by a

Danny

pilgrim

Niels

Yeah, no, no, no, by another hospitalero. He was crazy. Just crazy. He was uh I he uh he had several disagreements Because uh We we were different and uh he he He he didn't like the uh the way I was so uh one uh day uh He uh there was a pilgrim uh come in and She She he he was he was the the cook so he made the the food

Danny

Yeah

Niels

Food and she said to him oh may I have the The eggs What are you called fried on both sides oh yeah And uh he just said you can't ask that You're a pilgrim pilgrim they just have to say thank you they can't Demand anything

Danny

And she said

Niels

all right but that was okay and then he continued and she said okay Okay that's it so But he said you really should know that you're a pilgrim And then she said okay okay but he continued following her chasing her around And said ah You should know and you're not a good pilgrim if you're if you're doing that and And he he Continued doing it she was getting afraid of him and she came to me please please Keep him away From me and

Danny

so

Niels

then he got uh aggressive you know And uh and and she uh she really started feeling Uncomfortable and uh he said I would like to go to I don't want to stay here I like to go to Some other place okay say you find not I follow you I I Find another place for you and I chose The hospitalero, and I'm just following her down to Another place I did and uh Delivered her in An albergue, and I said she just had that not so good experience. Maybe she would like to talk About that please uh do have a talk with her yeah

Danny

and

Niels

uh so I Left and I went back and when I Came back, this hospitalero said, oh, thank you very much, Niels, for Bringing me out of that I didn't know how come okay it was all right but then they Said I'm just going up to have Some sleep before we start having dinner it's something that's almost ready So I did that and Then he came back he was a different person and he was uh Aggressive and he started being Getting to me and why did you you were on your you were on her side Why did you do that you left me Alone and uh

I think no no let's try and listen but he was impossible to talk to And uh I mean I said okay let's not talk about this now we Have something to eat And then out in the garden and he started hitting me

Danny

okay and

Niels

He hit me in the head and you say And then other pilgrims came out and they were disturbed and some would not stay Because this Was too much so they left But then okay we finished that and uh but uh later on Uh I said all right we finished it did not be You were the only two people at the albergue, the only two hospitaleros. So I went up to have Some sleeps and after that one hour later he came In opened the door to my room and to it and said Tomorrow You're gonna be out of here I don't wanna have you staying here

if you're staying I'm gonna kill you Oh there was that was horrible yeah so I said Okay I'm not gonna uh stay here in any matter So, the next day, Jato Uh was there again and uh And uh I couldn't get to talk to him because He was there but uh there was a Very bad situation you

Danny

know and

Niels

uh so I said Okay, I'm leaving. I looked at Jato, and Jato, Well, as his girlfriend later wrote me, you know, this was really bad for Jato. This happened between Among the pilgrims and you know how uh much he cares for Pilgrims and if they should uh experience This it was horrible for him

Danny

okay

Niels

So I didn't but I went out and then This guy, this hospitalero, he came Running for me and he threw my thing at me my luggage and uh And uh and hit me again and uh hit me in the head my glasses Were broken and It was horrible so that

Danny

was not nice

Niels

So yeah I tried to go to The police but we had it was difficult yeah

Danny

That's um the thing is that uh a risk on the Camino

Niels

Yeah uh

Danny

having said that if I look now this year I'm cautious I had last year a very bad experience with other pilgrims in osobrero And I'm still cautious but I can say that 99.99 Of the people on the Camino are not that.

Niels

And

Danny

also not the hospitaleros. What I've seen, however, is that not always The hospitaleros are Being treated very well. And I find that very a pity. Having said that, people ask me if they can Volunteer here in Inner Camino House, which we don't do Because we are not an Albergue, and I'm not a company. This is just private me inviting People in but perhaps Next year uh I'm willing to do that because then uh yeah I can be open for pilgrim seven days a Week and now I need to close and but still if I Would do that I will not invite any person in my

Home before I meet them before with zoom that I Really get a feeling about the person because If you are together as hospitalero in one place you are very close on each other And It needs to be a safe place and and also if somebody like that Acts like that and Needs to be uh dealt with so niels um what is what You really want To say before we close this episode to the pilgrims that you say okay this I really Want to To say well

Niels

oh What I want to say I think I said Most what I wanted to say I would like to Say if you're a pilgrim walking the Camino Try to If you're walking Camino frances I I believe The thing to do is to if Possible walk all of the Camino if you're not Want to walk the complete Camino frances And know that before you start walking I think why not pick Out another Which only last one or two weeks So make three weeks I think The larger Camino Is best The best to be walked in the full length that that's And

Danny

and

Niels

and I I think it's

Danny

So your the

Niels

idea or your home means the same than now The idea is to end in Santiago. That's the place, right? And some caminos do not end in Santiago, and that's it. Like in Vadiniense and Lebaniego, you End in the monastery in the, What do you call it? The monastery in the Picos de Europa. But that's it. That's another thing.

Danny

Yeah, so what I experienced myself, I walked two times from O Cebreiro to Santiago. That's 160 kilometers. And on my honeymoon Camino in 2014, I married in Portomarín in A church, And we walked from Samos, which is around 130 kilometers.

Niels

What

Danny

I experienced in these, because I was still working, And I could not take two months off or something. So what I noticed, Is that I had magical moments, I had Camino-provides moments. Things, I didn't leave so much things behind. That was more last year when I walked all the way from Saint-Jean, And especially in the Meseta, as of Logroño To León. People think that if they go to Burgos, then they miss the Masetta, which is not True. It continues all the way to León. And that was a different dynamic. I still had, again, magical moments, Camino-provides moments, Like in the other two shorter ones. But because it was a long walk, And especially as of Santo Domingo de la Calzada to León, There was a lot of soul work and mind work and psychology work going on In me.

And that was The most profound Part of all the four Caminos. But still, the other ones also had their value. And it prepared me

Niels

for

Danny

this one. Yeah, yeah.

Niels

But I still think that the first Camino you walk, I think It's best to walk the full Camino.

Danny

Yeah, yeah. Well,

Niels

if you're going to come back, it's all right to Do parts of it. And that's some place you'd like To explore further or something.

Danny

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, Niels, I want to thank you very much for the sharing of your story. And it was really a profound and intense story, I must Say.

Niels

Yeah,

Danny

thank you. And beautiful to listen to. And how your path was being Shown in a way which was really intense, like being over Saturated with love and then finally find your way to express that yourself. It was really beautiful. I really want to thank you for that. And thank you very much.

Niels

Yeah,

Danny

thank you too. Thank you.

Niels

Yeah.

Danny

Okay. Okay,

Niels

that's.

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