Episode 6 - Fr. Ben from Kentucky - The Camino Begins When You Slow Down

Danny

Hello, everybody, with this new episode for the Inner Camino podcast, Self Reflection podcast. And it is for pilgrims, by pilgrims. And I'm very pleased to have now in this episode, Ben from America. I met him last year. So I'm very pleased. And, Ben, could you introduce yourself a bit?

Fr. Ben

Yes. I'm Father Ben Cameron. I'm a Catholic priest from the United States. I live in Kentucky, with a group called the Fathers of Mercy. So I'm a missionary Catholic priest. And last year, in the fall of twenty twenty five, I had the honor of doing the Camino from Roncesvalles to Santiago, forty days on the Camino, forty incredibly blessed days on the Camino as a pilgrim.

And so in my normal life, I'm a missionary priest. I travel all over the United States, Canada, Australia, preaching in different churches. So I'm always kind of on the giving end, if you will. And on the Camino, I was there to really be on the receiving end, you know, and to experience and just to walk with others and to really be able to listen to others and to listen to the voice of God within, and as the encounters that God brought into my life.

Danny

Yes. So may I ask how old you are?

Fr. Ben

Yes. I'm fifty six years old.

Danny

Yeah. Okay. So for me, you're a youngster. I'm sixty seven.

Fr. Ben

Okay. Yeah.

Danny

So, Ben, again, I'm really pleased because we met last year on the Camino, and we had a very nice lunch together. You did a pilgrim mass in English, so I could, for the first time, understand what was going on. Because otherwise, this is Spanish.

So I have really dear memories about our meeting last year, and I'm really happy that you want to join the podcast. And I meet, at this moment, a lot of pilgrims, and I invite them all to actively join and not only think about it, but do it. And you do it. And this is so important. Otherwise, we cannot share stories. Right. If we leave it to other people, we need to do it ourselves. So I'm very, very pleased. And I'm also very curious what you want to share about your Camino.

Fr. Ben

So for me, one of the things that just stuck out to me is how many times I had what some people would consider a random encounter, but I don't consider them to be random encounters at all. I think each encounter is, as you would say, the Camino provides. I would say, God provides through the Camino, where I would meet somebody and just kind of, you know, unexpected, not foreseeing anything, not planning anything, but just kind of being open to encounters with other people.

You know, for example, when you and I met, I had my shortest day on the Camino. I was in Hospital de Orbigo. I was standing on the bridge and you come walking along and I just said hello. And we began a conversation and a friendship, you know, just there on the bridge in Hospital de Orbigo.

And, you know, why was I on that bridge at that moment when you were crossing the bridge at that moment? And why did I say hello? You know? And it was just, but it was meant to be. So I wanted to share several stories of the kind of encounter and just kind of the working of, for me, the hand of God or the finger of God in the Camino.

Very early on in my Camino, I think I was still in Navara, actually. I had met some people in this one little town. I can't remember the name of the town. Actually, it might have been Estella. And there was this one gal I'd kind of seen but didn't actually meet her. And the next day, I'm walking, and we're near each other, and she just says, hey, are you Father Ben? Are you that priest that I've been hearing about? And I'm like, yeah.

So she said, yeah, I need to talk to you about something. And her name's Jill. Each of the people I'm sharing, they gave me permission to share the story and their first name. And she's from California, and she is not Catholic, but she had been in Rome and had a troublesome encounter with a priest.

And it really wasn't where the priest did anything wrong. It was miscommunication. He didn't speak English. She didn't speak Italian. And, you know, she did something she really shouldn't have, but she didn't know any better. He tried to say something, but they couldn't understand each other. So it was just kind of traumatic. But she just needed to be able to talk.

And so we ended up walking together and talking for several hours. And I just really got to listen and to let her share what was on her heart, what was troubling her. And it really wasn't about having a perfect answer. It was about being a listener, for me, and listening to what was in her heart and being able to share with her.

And we struck up a friendship. Some days, part of the Camino, she was ahead of me, and part of it, I caught up with her. And then we ended up meeting up again in Santiago. And a whole group of us, you know, half the people I met on the Camino spoke English. So it was really pretty incredible. You know, we had our kind of community, we could all talk, whether we're from English speaking countries or like yourself, Europeans that speak English as a second or third language.

But it was a beautiful encounter and a friendship started. But it was just this type thing where I didn't plan it, and I don't think she planned it, but God kind of brought us together on the path. And it really was a beautiful encounter.

Danny

And do you know what that meeting meant for her?

Fr. Ben

I think it meant a lot because she shared with other people along the way, and she shared with me later on about how it really helped her to process what she had been through. Because it kind of helped remove some obstacles toward Catholicism that she had because of that encounter that was unpleasant.

And like I said, it wasn't even like the priest did anything wrong, or she intentionally did. It was just they couldn't communicate. And so she was able to share with me, and so it helped. And I communicated with her the other day, and she said, you know, it really kind of helped her whole view toward Catholicism. And she's strongly Christian in a different denomination. But it was a good encounter, you know? So that was one.

Another one that was amazing. I was in the little town of Viana. This is near Pamplona. And Viana has a running of the bulls. It was young bulls. And so I'd been there and experienced that. And I planned to the next day have kind of a shorter day than normal. You know, my average days were thirteen, fourteen miles. This was going to be a little shorter. So I thought, you know, I'll get a little later start. Maybe I'll leave around nine.

But then I was ready at eight, and I said, I'm just going to go ahead and go. And as I had walked no more than a block, this woman named Marissa comes out of an albergue, and we begin walking. I just said, you know, hello, how are you doing? And we get talking. And she told me she had planned to leave early because she had a longer walk that day, and she overslept. She was going to leave at like six in the morning, but she overslept. So she ended up leaving the exact same time I was leaving.

And she's from Brazil, but she had been living in Australia. And she said she's going to be on your podcast. So she's going to be on with you in the near future.

Danny

Oh, yeah. Then I think I know who it is. What was the name again?

Fr. Ben

Marissa.

Danny

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I met her. Insane story, by the way.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. So we start, you know, we're just walking and talking. And somewhere along the way, she opens up that she had had some really difficult things in her youth, and some very bad experience. So I'll let her, in her own, share what she wants to share.

But she just was able to share with me the kind of things that she'd been through and the struggles that she had had and how they'd affected her. And she was doing the Camino and she was working through it. The Camino for her was part of her healing journey, that she was having that time to reflect and to walk and to process her experiences and work on her healing.

And anyway, we were only actually walking together for maybe four hours, and there were a couple other men who at different points were with us. One guy from France that I intersected with several times, he said, just walking with you guys and listening to you two talk just really helped me, you know, which is kind of neat. He wasn't even really part of the conversation. He was just hearing, and so it helped him.

But we walked together till we had a lunch, and there was another guy with us, an American fellow, and then the two of them were walking on, and I already had my place. I was staying in the next town. I think it might have been Logroño, where I stopped.

But later on, she and I kept in contact through WhatsApp. And she told me, she said that she grew up in Brazil. She grew up Catholic. She said I was the first Catholic priest she was able to open up with about what had happened to her in her childhood, in her youth. And it was helpful for her.

But I didn't plan this meeting, and I didn't have an agenda. I just said good morning. You know? Somebody comes out of an albergue, and they're walking along with me, and I just said good morning. And that began a conversation that ended up being helpful to her.

Danny

Yeah. And did you also mention why she could open up to you and not to the other Catholic priest? Do you have an idea?

Fr. Ben

She didn't actually say. I don't know. Maybe I think part of it is that a lot of time when people go to a priest, they're going for direct counsel or they're going for an appointment about a particular thing, and it's like, there's a limited time. We've got this meeting. You asked for this. You know? It's not necessarily where you've got an extended amount of time to just listen.

So I know when I, as a priest, hear confessions, there's a limited amount of time because usually there's a line of people who want to see me, and they're there to confess their sins or receive forgiveness and go on with their life. But this was the type thing where we were walking together for about four hours. And so there wasn't any press for time. That was just that we were able to be together.

Danny

To connect and building trust that way.

Fr. Ben

Yeah. And so there's much deeper ability to connect when there's time. And I think that's one of the beautiful things with the Camino, is you have time on your hands.

You're not. We're so busy in our life with rushing to this and to that and to work and to sports and to get my kid to the dance lesson or to whatever it is, or for me as a priest from this appointment to this appointment to all these different things, there's not many opportunities to just be with somebody for hours.

And the Camino provides that possibility of deep connection. And I think that was the real key, is that there was the time. We had that chance to make deep connection, so that she could open her heart and just really share what was burdening her and her journey of healing and her seeking of healing.

And I just thought that was beautiful for me. The Camino brought opportunities for me to really be present to people in ways that other ways that life and even my normal ministry don't usually give me that opportunity.

I also do retreats. I do post abortion healing retreats. I spend a whole weekend with a crew of people, a team of people doing a retreat for four to eight people. And so I have it in things like that. But very seldom do I have that time to just really be present.

And the Camino provides that kind of opportunity. So that was another one.

I'd like to share a third story. It was closer to León, and I don't remember the name of the town. It was a couple days before we got to León. And I'm walking out of the town, and past a lady, and then there was some historical thing I wanted to see. So I stopped off to see that. And then I was circling back, and she was in front of me again.

So I was walking faster, and I started to pass her, and she said, are you Father Ben that I've been hearing about? I don't know. I guess I had a reputation. Because people kept, but I didn't hide the fact I was a priest. You know? I wasn't wearing clericals, but I had my name on my backpack and an American flag so people could know that I spoke English. And I wasn't hiding anything. So I figured, you know, look, however God wants to use this, I am who I am, and I'm going to let people know if they want to talk to me, they can.

So anyway, she asked, and I said, yeah, I'm Father Ben. And so I slowed down and started walking with her. Well, we'd have been walking together that whole day. And then in León, we had a day off the same day. We had a long lunch together and kept in contact.

And anyway, this lady, her name is Julie, and she's a minister in London. So she's a Protestant minister. Absolutely beautiful person, a beautiful soul, and just loves our Lord Jesus Christ with all her heart. And, you know, as a priest, most ministers I know, priests are all men, and most Protestant ministers I know are men. So she's probably the first woman minister that I actually spent significant time with.

But it was profound for me to walk with somebody that neither of us were really looking for anything in particular, but just to have real conversation about God, about our faith, about what the Camino meant to us, what we were hoping for in the Camino. You know, just kind of a deep personal sharing.

But I just felt like it was really meant to be. And I had published a book, and she's writing a book. And so I shared with her about my book, and she will let me know when hers gets done. But it was just that type thing where for me, in some ways, I was being ministered to by her. And in other ways, I was ministering to her. But we were like brother and sister in Christ, just able to really take time together.

And a really funny little thing, which she, I invited her when we were in León to have lunch, and we're at this little place right in the square, right across catty corner to the cathedral in León. You can probably picture it, off to the left from the front if you came out the main doors. And we have a pizza, salad, and a pizza, and a beer, and all this stuff, and having this great conversation.

And the guy comes out and says, would you like some dessert? I'm like, what do you have? And he said, pistachio cheesecake. And she said, you're speaking to me, your eyes just lit up. I knew you were going to get that pistachio. And it was awesome. You know? But it was just one of those times. Again, able to really spend time.

Danny

Yeah. Not be in a hurry.

Fr. Ben

I think I met a number of people on the Camino who I thought were too much in a hurry. They were rushing to get as many miles in as possible every day. They were leaving early, and they were arriving late, and it was like powering through.

But I don't think you get as much out of the Camino when you're powering through. To really enter into the Camino, you have to take your time, and you have to be willing to stop.

Danny

Yeah. And it's also, as we speak, I'm now entering the fifth week of the Inner Camino House. So there's a lot of people here. I don't know how many, but perhaps more than a thousand. And this is one of the subjects which also pops up when we talk with each other, that some people are making a marathon out of it and walking really fast.

And I really am a strong believer in that everybody walks his own Camino. And when they walk it so fast, then most of them, when I speak with people also who had walked fast, and now they walk slowly, they started to realize that they are running, rushing through life, not being aware that they are rushing through life.

And because they were running on the Camino, or very fast, that inkling could arise. Because then you arrive at Santiago, and some of them, they say, what actually did I do? Because this, it is passing away very quickly.

And then that gives them the inkling and the insight for, oh, whoa, perhaps I need to slow down a little bit and get more time. And then the next time when they walk it, they really can sink in that space and give themselves the space to slow down.

Fr. Ben

Right. And I think that's really important. Europeans can easily, you know, it's a few hours to get to Spain and do part of the Camino. Those of us who come from the United States or Canada or Australia and New Zealand, other parts of the world, it's more of a rare opportunity unless we're really blessed to be able to take six or eight weeks off of work and go.

And I don't know if I'll ever have the opportunity to walk the entire Camino again. I was on a sabbatical. I had twenty eight years of priestly ministry, and then I got a twelve week sabbatical. The Camino was part of that.

So especially if people are not having that opportunity to do it every year or whatever, I think people need to understand early on that slow down, don't be in a hurry. Because for me, one of the best things about the Camino was I slowed down to the pace that people lived at for most of human history.

I slowed down to the pace that you walk on your own two feet. And that really was beneficial to me because I drive all over the United States. I fly for places I can't drive. And a lot of my life, I'm running from this place to this place, to this place. And to just slow down for six weeks, and to walk and to listen, and take days where it was really me and the Lord.

There was nobody else, really. I wasn't really having many conversations. But other days, being open to it, somebody walks up and a conversation starts, having that openness to, you know, what is the day going to provide? And for those who believe, what is God going to provide? For those who maybe don't think of it in terms of God, what is the Camino going to provide?

And having this openness just to walk and just to have an open heart and an open mind to encounter people. And I met so many people who don't have the same faith or same experience that I do, but I was able to really be present to people and really have a heart to listen to people and not to think that I had to have an answer for people, but just to be present and to be a friend, you know, to those who wanted it.

Danny

Yeah. So you now talked about some events where you met people and walked together with them. Did you also have the opportunity to walk days on your own?

Fr. Ben

Oh, yeah. I had a number of times where I was really walking on my own. People would come by, they'd pass me, I'd say hello. If I pass somebody, I'd say hello.

Danny

And how was that for you, the difference?

Fr. Ben

I thought each one had its benefits. There were days where it was like, I was meant to have more quiet time and to be on my own. And there were days where I was meant to encounter somebody.

And some encounters were brief. Some encounters, I walked with somebody for twenty or thirty minutes, and then they were going on a little faster pace than me, or I stopped for a cup of tea and they didn't want to stop, and they continued on.

But just taking it each moment at a time. So, yeah, there were days where I was mostly walking alone, and it was great. And I needed it those days. But there were other times where I was meant to meet somebody and to spend time with somebody. And it wasn't like we were necessarily talking the whole time. Sometimes we're just walking together in companionship, and conversation kind of off and on.

Danny

Yeah. So what I noticed myself, because I walked four times and all the time, the Camino Frances. And last year, I was able to walk from Saint Jean Pied de Port to Santiago because I was retired. And three times before, I walked from O Cebreiro, which is hundred sixty kilometers. I did it two times with two of my kids. And I married on a Camino and walked from the monastery Samos.

And what I noticed in the three times that I did shorter parts, that I had magical experiences. I had Camino provide moments, that help came out of nowhere in a way that you cannot imagine. And also with the results, which is mind blowing. And deep conversations with people, revelations, all that kind of stuff was all there in the three times that I walked for fourteen or fifteen days.

What I noticed when I was walking last year, and especially as of Logroño, they officially, the Meseta starts from Burgos till León, but secretly, it starts already in Logroño. Because then the scenery changes and it becomes like that till León.

And walking there on my own, that was a totally different dimension that I encountered in the other ones. And at some time, I asked pilgrims when they wanted to walk with me in the morning, then I said, no, I just really want to be with myself and walk alone.

And what I noticed myself is that nearly every day, there were thematics from the past popping up, sometimes making me angry, sometimes making me sad, all kind of stuff, revelations, really deep insights that I was pondering on for years. And then that happened in these silent moments for myself.

And finally, when I arrived in Santiago, I can now conclude that that part made a big change in the person who I am now.

So when I tell this, does that resonate with you? What is your experience when you were walking alone?

Fr. Ben

Yeah. It does resonate. I didn't really have a lot of turmoil or anything to work through on the Camino. I mean, I met a lot of people who were working through grief, who were working through trauma. But I didn't really have a lot. I kind of worked through grief in my life. I'd lost my brother eight years before. I'd lost my father four years before, but I'd had time to work on those.

And I've been blessed. I really didn't have much trauma in my life. So it wasn't that type of thing. But still, I think we need silence. And a lot of our world, we don't have silence.

I even notice when I walk in the country in Kentucky, and I live ten miles outside of the city of Bowling Green, so I live in the country, but even walking down a country road, we don't really have silence because there's the power lines. And you can even hear the buzz of the electric lines. So we don't really get much opportunity for real silence.

And I think that the human soul, the human psyche actually needs silence. And whether that silence is there for the opportunity to think about things in the past or to work through things that we've been through, or to settle down our worries about the future.

A lot of time, we're listening to books, we're listening to music, and I do that when I'm walking in the country on boring roads. I listen to books a lot. But I think so many times we're not having silence to really know ourselves at a deep level and to be able to listen for the voice of God at that deep level.

And the Camino provides an opportunity for that, that you just don't have in many other places. I mean, maybe in the United States, you walk the Appalachian Trail or the Pacific Crest Trail or something like that. But those are different.

I walked part of the Appalachian Trail when I was young. And I was on the Camino for a shorter Camino in twenty fifteen, I did nine days. I did León to Astorga and then Sarria to Santiago, and that whetted my appetite for more, for doing the whole thing.

But when you're doing like the Appalachian Trail, you're literally having to carry everything. You're carrying your housing essentially with your tent and your bedding. You're having to carry out your food, the ability to make fire, to cook your food. The Camino, it can be simpler because you don't have to carry all that.

But I think a lot of people look on the Camino as, like, kind of a neat hiking, walking vacation, and everything's provided. And so they're not really thinking about the interior work of the Camino.

But the Camino in its roots is a pilgrimage, and it's a pilgrimage to the tomb of an apostle, St. James, the apostle. And so it's this thing that for twelve hundred years, people have walked to Santiago, and it's to pray and to listen and to encounter the divine.

And it's only in silence that we can really hear the voice of God. And so even though I wasn't trying to work through grief or trauma or something, I was still really wanting to have that more silence to listen, that I don't get as much in my normal life. And that's one of the blessings of the Camino, as we have that opportunity.

Danny

Yeah. And you said, just a little bit before, you said the voice of God. And when I talk here with fellow pilgrims, we often talk about the chatter in our brain. There's always a lot of chattering going on. That's the human brain trying to help you.

And then when there is silence, and I call this I'm out of the way. And then you connect to something at a very deep source. You know, I'm Catholic. We talked about it, and people also know that I've a little bit troublesome relationship with Catholic church as well. But still, I don't deny that, and I respect it. There's no judgment in that aspect.

But I call it a little bit different. The deep knowing, for instance, is one of the names. Because there's so much knowledge flowing through that space, which I don't have. It is just not there. I only can reach that part when the chattering in my brain silences down.

I took last year also my iPhone earplugs with me. And I searched for podcasts and books I wanted to listen to. I didn't. I was just there with me and myself, with my tinnitus sounding in my ear. That was the only sound. And then yourself.

And then you finally start to fall through the chatter of your brain into the space of unconditional love. That's how I experience it. And that you really can share that with yourself, with God, with the deep knowing, whatever you call it.

But there is something there which doesn't judge about what you did, and loves unconditionally. And every time, like now, I can get really emotional about that because there is, in that sense, no expectation. It is just there with you.

And that's also, I don't know if we talked about it before last year. When I was walking, I had a wave of creativity flowing through me. And one of these things caused me sitting down writing a song, and I never in my life wrote any songs. I'm not a musician.

But in that song, in the third verse, I wrote down: laughter in three languages, all meaning the same, I see you, I'm with you, you can rest your name.

And that is really what I feel where I get that deep connection with God, with that which is creating everything what we are experiencing here. And it is breathtaking.

And also when we play the song here in the Camino House, people start crying again and again and again. And I feel in the room, there's so much love available at that moment. It is overwhelming, really.

So what I'm also very curious about is, you walked now the Camino, and you had these encounters and the time and the space to be together with pilgrims and with yourself and walking alone. Do you feel or know that it has an effect on your daily life?

Fr. Ben

Yeah. It does. That memory of having more silence and of being able to be present to people, not always having to have an answer, but being more of a listener, that was something that really has affected me, I know, in going forward.

Because a lot of time as a priest, it's kind of like, you know, I'm supposed to preach. I'm supposed to counsel. I'm supposed to kind of have the answers, and we can kind of get in the mode of just giving the answers.

But realizing through the Camino that sometimes I need to just really sit and receive, and receive what somebody else is saying, and listen to some things, the things that are beyond the words, the things that are within their heart that they're trying to express, that they're having trouble getting the words for.

And in order to do that, you have to just really be present to somebody. And you can't necessarily have an agenda of, I'm going to solve this thing.

I mean, in the United States, there's the classic kind of little almost meme type thing of the man wants to solve, the wife has a problem and the man wants to solve it, and she doesn't want him to solve it. She just wants him to listen. And both have a role. Men generally are problem solvers. But there are times where sometimes we need to just listen, you know, and not have to have an answer, but just to listen.

And sometimes in the listening, we encounter a person at a deeper level. And then the words we do say are more impactful because we were able to listen more, and listen more deeply to what the person was saying and to what they're trying to say.

Because so often in our society today, people are talking past each other. We see it in the politics big time, and people are talking past each other. They're not actually listening to each other.

Danny

No.

Fr. Ben

And because they're not actually listening to each other, they never find any common ground from which to work at eventually coming to commonalities and solutions to problems because they're just shouting at each other.

So the Camino is a blessing for kind of like a personal reset. I wanted a couple of things relating to that.

There was an English woman I met. Her husband walked with her for a few days, but apparently she walks a different part of the Camino every year and has walked different Caminos, but has been doing it for years. And she said for her, the first third of the Camino, you're focused on the physical. Your body hurts.

And the second is the mental. And you're worrying about, okay, where am I going to stay and all that, which I didn't have because I prearranged where I was staying and everything, but still your mind is going a lot.

And then in the last third is where you really kind of get to the depth, which she called the spiritual part of the Camino. But if we're intentional about what we're doing with the Camino and why we're doing the Camino, we can not be so focused on just the physical and even the mental, and we can go more quickly to, or integrate the spiritual, the inner part much quicker, and throughout the Camino.

The other thing is when I did the Camino the first time, I noticed that the last segment from Sarria to Santiago, there were so many more people that almost the culture of the Camino changed. Because, you know, two hundred people walked into Sarria and two thousand people walked out.

And it was really hard for the people who are just joining at that last part to really experience that silence part of the Camino. And God bless them, I'm glad people make the Camino and do it even if they only have a week, they do the shorter.

But I would really recommend people who are thinking about doing the Camino, who are watching this or listening to this podcast, to at least try to do part of that Camino that's before Sarria because you have an opportunity to kind of experience what the Camino is like and the kind of culture of the Camino, because it is kind of like its own society in a certain sense. There's this culture of the Camino.

And, you know, in that way, not just experiencing that where there's the vast crowds and the young people who are listening to their rap music on the boomboxes while they're walking, which is not what the Camino was like as a whole.

So, I mean, ideally, if people can do six weeks to go from Saint Jean. I was supposed to start at Saint Jean, historical problem, and it started at Roncesvalles. It was God's providence for me because the day I would have been coming down to Roncesvalles was a horrible day, and a lot of people got hurt. And I have a bad ankle. I was spared of a really rough day of walking, you know? So it was providential for me.

But if people can only do two weeks or something, not necessarily doing just the end, taking another part so you can kind of get that real spirit and the inner journey of the Camino, which you can do more where there's more silence.

Danny

Yeah. I think when they start from Burgos or Logroño, then you are in that space. And there's also the Meseta, which officially starts in Burgos and runs to León, which I just mentioned, secretly starts already in Logroño because the scenery is already changing there.

And it is also a part where people are afraid of, and they bypass it by train and bus. And again, everybody walks his own Camino. And so there is a reason, and we don't understand why they do that. But for me, the most valuable part was that part.

And as of León, it was more for me like celebrating life, have a lot of fun together with people, and a totally different atmosphere.

There's one thing before I forget it. You also said that as a priest, there is much more an expectation that you come with answers and solutions, in whatever form. And when you now are connecting in listening and giving that space, I'm curious. Are the answers you are giving then from a different, is that different? Or are more or less the same answers you give when you are totally in a priest role and do that? Or is there a difference in the answer you get?

Fr. Ben

A lot of it depends. I mean, if somebody asks me a moral issue that is clear in scripture and in what the Catholic faith and Christianity has always held, my answer is not going to be different than it was. How I get there with people, and the time I take to really listen to them, how to approach them, is going to be different.

But a lot of things are not necessarily the black and white of morally right or morally wrong. It's more like, what's the best way for me to approach this or that? Or that type of thing where there's a lot more, let's really listen to what's going on in your heart. Why is this important to you?

So there's more of a, as I'm listening, I'm encouraging them to look deeper at what's going on within, rather than just, okay, here's your question, here's your two minute answer, and we move on.

But, you know, if somebody asked me, is it okay for me to cheat on my wife? No, it's not. But I might ask them, tell me a little bit more about what's been going on in your marriage that you're even asking this question, and is there something you can be looking more deeply at in your marriage, and getting to the root of what's going on there?

So, yeah. Yes and no, depending on the kind of thing.

Danny

Okay. Before we close this episode, I always ask the question, in the meantime, it becomes always the question. Is there something you really want to tell to your fellow pilgrims, or the people who are listening to the podcast and thinking about walking the Camino? Is there something you say, this is really something which is important I want to share, outside of the experience you already shared?

Fr. Ben

Mainly just that if you're going to walk the Camino, take your time. It's not a race. It's a journey. And the journey itself is worthwhile. It's not just about getting there to the end. The path itself matters.

And if I can go to actually, The Lord of the Rings, Bilbo had a thing about, you know, every path you step out of your home, out of your front door, and every path connects to every other path, and you never know where you're going to go.

The journey itself matters. So don't rush to get to the goal. Take the time and treasure the journey. And make the space for silence and make the space for the encounters that are going to happen on the Camino. If you make the space for it, you're going to have a deeper experience on the Camino than if you're driven by an agenda.

Danny

Yeah. And also when you do that, you practice this while walking the Camino. You are practicing your brain to make space in the Camino after the Camino. Because then you train your brain to make that space, and it is easier to do it afterwards also. And then you take the Camino more home.

And also my experience and what I heard from other fellow pilgrims as well. Because when you take that vibe, that space with you in your daily life, and you start doing that more and more, people resonate on that as well.

So you become more and more of a shining light in your environment without doing anything special, just being, creating more space for yourself and automatically for other people. And that is when you are silent and take more time, and you create that space.

Fr. Ben

Right. Yeah. Exactly.

Danny

So, Ben, I really am very happy that we have this talk with each other. I don't want to call it an interview, because it wasn't.

Fr. Ben

No. Conversation.

Danny

It's just a talk with two pilgrims and sharing. And I really hope that when other people listen to this podcast, they actively press on the share button on the website and fill in the names and their email address so we have a talk.

Because the idea from the podcast is that we share the stories, and you can listen every day to a story. So you bring the Camino to your daily life and start radiating, because it will have an impact on yourself. I'm an example of that. Now I'm living on the Camino, which I could never imagine that would happen.

And sharing so much beautiful time with people, and they open their hearts, and it is so beautiful. Where this could be a medium where we can bring this widespread out of the north of Spain, but also at your local place where you live.

So if you listen to this podcast, don't hesitate, because our instinct has the habit that if he smells change, he doesn't like that. And he has a very good tool to keep you at the same place, and it is letting you forget that you want to do something.

And then you think, oh, I will hit the button tomorrow, but you will not do it because your instinct is in the way. So please join so we can make this a live podcast for as many pilgrims as we can.

So, really, really thank you for joining the podcast.

Fr. Ben

You're welcome.

Danny

It will be online, and thank you very much.

Fr. Ben

I enjoyed it. Thank you, Danny. Great conversation.

Danny

Thank you. Alright.

Fr. Ben

God bless.

Danny

Bye.

Fr. Ben

Bye.

Whether you are walking the Camino right now, or preparing for it, or perhaps you are back home, and maybe even suffering from PCS, the Post Camino Syndrome.

I hope that this podcast inspires you. And if so, do NOT keep it to yourself.

SHARE IT!

When you share this podcast, you ACTIVELY help spread the skill of Self-Reflection.

Every person who learns the skill of Self-Reflection begins to see people differently.

You may still question WHAT someone DOES.

But the judgment about their INTENTION starts to disappear. And you enter the realm of non-judgement.

And non-judgment is experienced as unconditional love.

That is how REAL change begins.

With you.
Then the people around you.
Your city.
Your province.
Your country.
Your continent.
And eventually,
the world.

That is why ACTIVELY spreading the skill of Self-Reflection, like an unstoppable virus, is SO important.

So please, do NOT just listen, but ACT on this call, and share it with as MANY people and on as MANY platforms as you can, TODAY.

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Thank you for listening, and Buen Camino.