Episode 7 - Emma from Ireland - Learning to walk her own Camino

Danny

Hello, Emma. I am so pleased that we meet each other again here in the podcast, and that you want to participate in this podcast. I am Dutch, so I sometimes speak a little bit funny English, but anyway. I am very pleased.

Could you present yourself to the audience? Who you were, who you are, in a short brief introduction?

Emma

Sure. First of all, thank you very much, Danny, for inviting me to participate in your podcast. It is very exciting. My name is Emma. I am from Ireland, born and bred. I am fifty two, about to turn fifty three at the end of next month, and I finished, almost finished, my second Camino where we met in October twenty twenty five. That was last year, was it not?

Danny

Yeah. Twenty twenty five.

Emma

So I am delighted to be able to participate with this. I know we have had some amazing conversations, and I am excited to see where this goes.

Danny

Okay. The thing about the podcast is that there is a lot of stuff out there for what I call the hiking Camino, the outer Camino, about the pictures and the places where you are. But actually, people are getting into trouble with PCS, the Post Camino Syndrome, because of the Inner Camino which people walk during the Camino.

Things like magical moments, the Camino provides moments, things you leave behind, revelations you had. What is something you could share, and want to share, with your fellow pilgrims, with your Camino family actually?

Emma

Yeah, the wider Camino family. I mean, I did not know I was aware of the Camino before I found out about it, if that makes sense. But frankly, I did know because I knew people who had walked it. I just did not connect the two.

I first did the Camino Francés in twenty eleven. I had been living over in the UK. I am a psychologist, so I had gone over to the UK to do my master’s. I worked over there, and then I was coming home with the hope of getting onto a clinical training program, doctorate clinical training.

And I got on, and I was like, right, I need a holiday. I want a holiday before I begin. I want to go to Spain. I do not know what else I want to do.

I was trying to book a holiday, and I could not find anything. The thought of lying at a beach or by a pool for a week or two was like, oh God. In my frustration, I took myself away from my computer and went down to the cinema one day, and I happened to see Martin Sheen’s movie, The Way.

Danny

Oh, you too?

Emma

Yeah.

Danny

Me too.

Emma

I was watching it and I could feel this connection, this burning desire inside me. I could not really explain what it was, but I wanted to run out of the cinema to go and start my own Camino, even though I had not finished the movie. I did not know what it was. It was just like a click.

So I went home and I went down several rabbit holes and researched it. I went, yeah, that is what I want to do. It is Spain. It is not sitting by a pool for a week. So I booked my flight into Biarritz, up to Bayonne, Saint Jean Pied de Port. And I had my return flight home from Santiago five weeks later.

In between that, I had no plan. I did not know what I was going to do, what it was going to be like. I had never really been a hiker. I had never really done hiking before. I do not know what got into me, but I just thought, yeah, that is what I want to do. So off I went.

Danny

So actually, you lost your mind?

Emma

Yeah, pretty much. I was like, yeah. I mean, this looks fun. It looks exciting. It looks like beautiful scenery, all that kind of stuff. Why not?

I had to go and buy a rucksack. I had to go and buy hiking boots and hiking socks. I had no gear. I had nothing. So I took myself off down the rabbit hole of research and looked into it.

The more time I spent researching, the more I thought, this is going to be a really good analogy for my clinical training. It is a discrete distance, a discrete period of time. There are going to be good days and bad days. There are going to be uphills and downhills. There are going to be flat surfaces, things that are easy, things that are difficult. And it is going to throw curveballs that you cannot anticipate.

I thought, that is a really nice analogy. A kind of trial run as I go into a three year clinical professional training program. So off I went, not knowing anything. I did not even know how to wear a rucksack.

I flew over into Biarritz, got up to Saint Jean Pied de Port, and did not have a clue. The next day, I got up and just followed the crowd. In twenty eleven, a lot of interest had started to pick up. There were a huge number of German tourists on the Camino at that time.

Danny

Indeed, in that period of time a lot of Germans were walking.

Emma

Yeah. I asked how come there were so many, and they said a German comedian, I think a stand up comedian, had either written a book or done a piece about it.

Danny

Hape Kerkeling. I lived sixteen years in Germany. The Germans always ask, did you read the book? It is called Ich bin dann mal weg in German.

Emma

Okay. I never knew what it was called or who it was, but that was what got the German cohort there. So I walked with a lot of German people. I walked with a lot of European people. I think maybe I was three weeks in before I met another Irish person there, which I thought was interesting.

Danny

So you were walking, starting in Saint Jean Pied de Port, just following all the people?

Emma

Yes. I got up. I think there were maybe eight beds in the room and six of them were German. So I was like, okay, I am going to follow them. They seem like they know what they are doing. So off I went and followed.

I walked up and over into Roncesvalles that first day, not knowing how to carry my pack. One of the things that I learned is how to carry your pack. Again, that is symbolic of how you go through life. How do you carry the weight you carry?

My first day, even the research I had done before I had gone on the Camino, it was giving me a lot of food for thought. On my first day, it was like, oh, okay. I went on my own because I had been a chronic people pleaser my whole life. And I knew if I went with somebody else, I would give in to their agenda all the time. I wanted to find, what is my agenda? What is right for me? That was my decision to go alone.

Danny

So actually, that was a decision to go towards your Inner Camino.

Emma

Yes. Absolutely. My Inner Camino. I needed to follow my Inner Camino.

Danny

Exactly.

Emma

Of course, very quickly into it, I met people on the first day. We went out for dinner. They were Portuguese, German, French Canadian. We went out for a meal. They were all very welcoming. We stayed in the same little dorm area.

Then we set off the next day, and I was busting my ass to keep up with them. I ended up with chronic blisters. I had one on my heel that was about two inches long. It was huge. Because I was trying to keep up with them.

It took me a few weeks to learn that lesson. I needed to go my own way because I fell very quickly into my own trap, and I had to rectify the whole way back. I completed that Camino in five weeks. I got into Santiago as planned and spent a couple of days. But because I was not operating to the beat of my own drum, I suffered multiple injuries. I had tendinitis. My leg squeaked. When I lifted my foot up, I could hear a squeak in my leg.

Danny

That is not meant to happen.

Emma

Exactly. I had blisters in my blisters. I did not even know what to do, how to treat blisters at first. Within a couple of days, I was eating a bocadillo at the morning break and popping blisters as I went. So I got very proficient very quickly in the practical, but I was still falling into the traps a little bit.

I heard so much about your Camino family, your Camino family, and I felt like I had to keep with the same people. That was my idea of what it was. Even if it was not suiting my agenda, I had to keep with them. So I skipped a lot of stages by bus. And I was like, you do your Camino your way. I am an avid believer of that. You have to do Camino your way. And in order to do that, you have to find out what is your way. So it is that inner reflection.

I got buses. I did the Camino my way. By the time I arrived into Santiago, I was like, I am never walking again. What was I thinking? This is it. I am done.

Then I went home. I did my clinical training, and it was a really good analogy. The ups and downs, the good days, the bad days. Do not fall into other people’s agenda. Stay true to yourself. Find out who I am as a psychologist. How do I operate as a psychologist?

You are influenced by people on the training program. We had to do six placements, so we got six different supervisors. We had the academic components, our teachers, our instructors, our class peers, people ahead of us and below us. You have to find out who you are. So again, it is much like the Camino in that way.

Danny

What strikes me now while you are talking is that I also started walking the Camino in twenty thirteen because of the movie The Way. In the movie, you see that the family is moving all the way. I never realized until now, but because you watch the movie, we are already programmed in a way that we need to catch up with the family.

Actually, that is not the case. Last year, I walked from Saint Jean till Santiago, and I had many families. But in the beginning, I also had the idea that I needed to stick with these people. But it was not healthy for me. I am an old man, so I could not keep up with twenty five kilometers every day. That was not possible.

And now you tell this, and I think, oh really? You see the movie and immediately your brain is already programmed in that way. Sorry to interrupt you, but that was so for you also.

Emma

Yeah, it did. Amazing. I think that is how we have to operate as humans. We see something, we are introduced to something, and we think that is the way it is. Until we experience it differently, we think that is the way it is.

I was influenced by the movie. You were influenced by the movie. We did not realize it at the time. And the Germans I met were probably influenced by the book. People who have heard stories from other people are influenced. We are shaped by our experiences, and we have to be, in order to make sense of the world. There is so much data coming into us from the world. We have to make sense of it and take shortcuts. But those shortcuts are sometimes based on incorrect or incomplete information.

Danny

And we do not think about that. We just go headlong.

After your first Camino, you were enduring injuries, blisters like crazy. I had the same the first time I walked. I started in O Cebreiro and arrived in Portomarín and I could not see my feet anymore. It was one big blister. I thought, okay, my Camino is over, but three days later I could walk.

What I take out of what you tell now is that actually you were walking the Camino, but not your Camino the first time.

Emma

I struggled with staying with my Camino. I would fall in and then go, ah, that. I think the point was walking along the canal into Frómista, I felt a pop in my leg. I literally could not put weight on my foot anymore.

I think the girl who came up might have been Swedish. I cannot remember her name. I can see her face. I did meet her again in Santiago. She came up. She knew I was struggling. I started crying. I was in such pain. She had poles, and I never walked with poles. She gave me her poles to take some of the weight, not as crutches, but just to take some of the weight bearing. She walked incredibly slowly with me the rest of the way into Frómista.

She was going on somewhere else, but she got me checked into a family run albergue. I stayed there for the night, and I was like, I am done. I cannot go anymore. But I was not done. They told me where I needed to go to get to a hospital in León. So I had to skip some of that section.

I was raging because I really wanted to walk. I got to León. I really wanted to walk the Meseta, and that was the moment when my leg popped.

Danny

So actually, she was a Camino provides moment.

Emma

She was the Camino angel. The Camino provides. Unbelievable. I had never met her before that day. She came up and said, use my poles. I said no, because she was using them. I could not take from somebody because then they would not have. And she really had to work hard to get me to take them. For me to accept, yes, I need help and thank you, I can take your help.

She walked slowly with me. I did not see her again until Santiago. When I saw her in Santiago, I was like, oh my God. It was a Camino provided moment. I said to her, you are my Camino angel.

That really forced me to reflect on whose Camino I was walking here. I think I was more mindful and more reflective from that point on because I was forced to be. When I got to León and the hospital, the doctor said, no, you need to stop walking. And I was like, I cannot. He said, you cannot. But what I did was rest for a couple of days. Then I got both sides of it. I am not going to walk today. Then I walked maybe five kilometers, ten kilometers, very slowly, very gently. Then I increased, and I was able to walk into Santiago.

By the time I got there, I was like, never walking again. Then I went home, did the clinical training. So that was twenty eleven. I did my clinical training, and that consumed me. I had no time for anything else.

Then I had a job. I went from training into a job, and then I got a different job that I was waiting for. There were six months where I was working one job, which I enjoyed, but I was waiting for the other job. I got the other job, was there for three and a half years, and the service I went into changed utterly. It was flipped on its head. It was like, I do not fit here anymore, and I need to get out.

I felt like I needed to walk it out. I did not really know what that meant. But I was like, I need to go back to the Camino. This time, I am going to walk every step of the way. But I am going to do it if it takes me twenty years. I will take twenty years.

I started in September twenty eighteen. Again, I did not fall quite as quickly into the traps. I was more aware, and I was making conscious choices to walk with or not with. But very quickly, I got tendinitis again. Same place, same leg. I was like, what the hell?

I had to stop. I think I was a week into it, by Logroño. I had to stop. I knew when I booked it, I was like, I am going. I have got two weeks. I can walk for a day. I can walk for two weeks. I do not know. I am going to walk until I cannot walk anymore. I stop, and then that is where I pick up from the next one.

So I got to Logroño and stopped. My sister lives in Madrid, so I got a bus down to Madrid and spent some time with her. I said, right, I will pick it up again next year, or in six months, or whatever.

Then I do not know what happened in twenty nineteen. COVID hit and that kind of put the kibosh on it. So I went back in twenty twenty three and turned fifty. I was like, for my fiftieth, I am going to go back and I am going to walk again. I do not know how much I am going to walk. I do not know how far I am going to walk. But I am going to rest, walk, and write. Those are the three things I want to do.

I went over to pick up exactly where I had left off, checked into the albergue in Logroño, and then I got a call to go home because my mom was in hospital and was not going to make it. So I had to go home. I did not walk any of the Camino at that time.

Danny

So that was the third time you went?

Emma

That was to pick up on the second stretch of the French Way, but it was the third time going over.

It took me a year and five months to get back. October twenty four, I picked up from Logroño. I checked into the same albergue I had checked into when I got the call about mom. I was like, this time I am determined to walk out of the city without anyone dying. And off I did.

That was really a moment. There was something very cathartic and very strange about that.

Danny

What do you mean, very strange? What did you experience?

Emma

I noticed I was very worried picking up from where I had left off when I got the call about mom.

Danny

Why?

Emma

I thought something bad was going to happen again. I did not know what was going to happen. I thought, should I not be doing this? She was all for me doing it when I went over after my fiftieth birthday. She was like, be careful. Let us know where you are and when you go. All the stuff that parents say, even at fifty. And she went out for lunch and did not survive.

When I went back, I was like, I do not know. But I found myself going back into the same albergue. I was in the same dorm, one cubicle over, with the same bed in the next cubicle. Same room. I was like, okay. I am just going to go. I am just going to notice what happens, what comes up.

So I did. I was walking out, and it felt like a completion of something. I am still processing that, two years off. Still processing it.

From Logroño, you are heading towards Burgos and then into the Meseta. The scenery after Logroño starts to change already in that way. I cannot really remember those first couple of days out of Logroño. Lots of things.

On that time, in twenty twenty four, when I picked up from Logroño, I was like, I am walking by myself. This is a conscious choice I am making. I need to do my Camino my way.

So I walked for ten days. I did two hundred and fifty kilometers in ten days. The first six days, I walked entirely by myself. I passed pilgrims. I would say hello, good morning, but I did not really fall in with people. I might fall in step with somebody for a bit, and then carry on on my own. I consciously walked by myself. I consciously had coffee by myself. I had my dinner, lunch, breakfast, whatever meals I had, by myself.

It was really important for me to do that, to really allow myself to reflect on my experience, on what was going on for me. And by Jesus, Danny, did I fight. I argued with myself. I screamed out into the universe. I did all of that processing, the grief, not just for mum, but for many other things.

As I walked by myself, following my Camino and doing my Inner Camino, at that point, my inner Camino very much mapped onto my outer Camino, the hiking, the walking. I had blisters. I had blisters in my blisters. They did not stop me. The physical pain was almost like a manifestation of what I was going through.

I noticed I was getting song lyrics. Little snippets of song lyrics coming up in my head as I walked different stages, different days. I would ask, what is the message in that? What is trying to communicate? What is my own consciousness telling me here as I free associate while walking?

I used that silence. It was by far the most meditative part of any Camino I have done. So I have a kind of yearning to go back and do that section again. Just that section, to see what, if anything, is different.

I remember you can walk for hours and hours and hours, and nothing changes, and it is beautiful. Then all of a sudden, something changes. One foot in front of the other. Breathe in. Breathe out. Notice the pause in between, and just keep going.

Danny

When you were walking on a certain day in that period, and a lot of things happened, perhaps you were screaming against the universe or whatever, and there were a lot of emotions going on, did it stay the whole day then?

Emma

It would change. It would depend. There was other stuff going on. There were texts and stuff from home and different relationships that I was trying to navigate my way through and into and out of and beyond.

Things would change according to how I slept, if I had eaten, what I had eaten, what I got in a text message, if I had not gotten a text message. What I did notice is that if I distracted myself away from something so as not to feel it, it came back up.

So I had to sit into it and let it ride, like John Kabat Zinn says. You cannot fight the waves. You have to learn to surf. So I jumped up on my psychological surfboard.

Did it change? Sometimes it changed more quickly. Other times it did not change. Other times it took a couple of days. But I was able to notice, even in those times when I would be walking along and in the hell of it, then see a little beetle walking across the path. That little beetle has no concept of my inner journey. I have no concept of your journey. And just meeting life there.

I had those moments of reflection that allowed me to tolerate when things were tough, really tough. And then kind of knowing, this too shall pass. And so all the good times too. I am trying not to hold on if I was feeling good. I am trying not to push back against something in order to preserve the good feeling.

Things did change and shift. By the sixth day, I fell into a walk with somebody and walked a lot. It was like, I had made a conscious choice up until that point. On that day, I walked with somebody and it was natural and it suited me. It worked for me.

I was noticing that while I was doing it. As I walked on, I noticed, okay, now I need to maybe spend some time by myself. So we went for coffee, and I said, I think I am going to push on because I need some time by myself. The shifts were very tiny, and then they were very significant.

Danny

Because that is a real paradigm shift, actually. Especially with your profession and your standard modus of operation as a human, that is a big shift. Just a couple of words, but a big shift.

Emma

Huge. Huge shift. The feeling of, I do not want to say pride because it is not pride, but this feeling of achievement and satisfaction, and I suppose self protection from that.

The first time I said to somebody, I am going to push on now, I need to think about a couple of things, so I am just going to push on, and they said, yeah, great, we will catch up with you later on. I floated. Just being able to do that, I was like, I listened to what was going on for me and then put it into practice.

My walking was quite fast on that. I think I was in line with myself.

Danny

Exactly. It is interesting what you say now because you say, my walking was quite fast. I started last year in Saint Jean Pied de Port, and I thought, okay, I am sixty seven now, so I need to take care of myself. I have some trouble with my left knee, so I was walking quite slow.

Then I started to get trouble with my knee. And then I thought, is this actually the real speed that fits me? I started to experiment a little bit. It turned out that my natural speed was more than twice as fast as I started off with.

Normally I was walking and people were passing me. But now it was me like a machine, chug chug chug. People said, hey, are you in a hurry? But I was not. It was my natural rhythm. It was much faster than my logical brain was concluding I should do.

Emma

Yeah. You mentioned body. I would always have thought I am quite a fast walker, but I am short. I am five one and a half. So everybody who walks fast gets there quicker than I do. Even though I am a fast walker, I was like, how is everybody getting there? Then it took a while for me to go, oh right, their stride. They have longer legs.

For me, my walking matched the energy I was feeling. I had my seven, eight, ten kilo backpack on me. My way of doing the Camino has always been to carry my pack with me. I carry what I need. That is not to dispute people who get bags carried on. You have to do the Camino your way. For me, I started it that way, so I finish it that way. Next time, maybe I will get my bags carried. I have no idea.

But for me, I had my pack on my back and it felt comfortable and fit well, and off I went. I remember I passed a woman one day, and she said, wow, you walk so fast for a pilgrim. And I said, oh, okay, I have a lot of shit to process. I did not know those words were going to come out of my mouth. That to me was like, oh, okay. That is what I am doing.

I think things very quickly. The way my brain operates was the same way as my body was operating. So I was in deep with myself. It was interesting to do that.

Of course, in the Meseta it is flat. It is much easier to walk fast when you are walking on the flat. When I went back last year, where we met, I picked up again.

Danny

So that was your fifth time?

Emma

One, two, three, four, five. Yeah.

Danny

May I ask why did you go for the fifth time again?

Emma

Because when I had set out in twenty eighteen, I said, I am walking every step of the way.

Danny

You had not finished the other one yet.

Emma

No. When I picked up from Logroño, I had two weeks. I did not know how long I was going to walk for. My sister and niece drove up from Madrid to meet me in Sahagún. I miscalculated, and I did not think I would make it to León in enough time and then spend a day traveling back down to Madrid to get my flight home.

When they came to Sahagún to meet me, I stopped at that point. I went, I am happy here. This is good, and I will pick up from here the next time. It was exactly the halfway point. I went, okay, I have done half. I have half left. I do not know how long it is going to take.

In twenty twenty four, I picked up again in Sahagún, from near enough where we had dinner. I picked a place where this was my starting point. I walked from Sahagún. I had however long I had. I think twenty days. I was like, I do not know how far I am going to go. I have no idea. I will not get to Santiago every step of the way, but we will see how I go. If I get to Sarria, that is good enough. I can pick up from there.

I walked from Sahagún, and the first morning I mostly walked on my own. I met an Irish couple in a bar. Irish people, when we are away, tend to gravitate towards each other. If we find each other, it is like a homing device. I can spot an Irish person in a crowd.

Danny

It is the same with Dutch people. You just know.

Emma

I started talking with this couple at a place where we had both stopped independently for lunch. Then they walked on. I left and caught up with them, and I just fell into a rhythm. I walked with the woman of the couple for a couple of hours together. Then I checked in and found my place to stay. I was like, oh, I walked with somebody on my first day. That is interesting. That is different from last year.

Danny

When you walked with somebody else, because it was quite a struggle the other times to make space for yourself and be with yourself. But now you were walking with somebody else. Was it now possible for you to walk with somebody and also stay in your own space?

Emma

Yeah. That is the change there. All this time, I had taken time off work. I had absolute burnout. I hit the wall. I was not able anymore. I had been off work since November twenty three. This was nearly two years off work at this point. I had done significant personal self reflection, therapy, journaling, a lot of Camino walking, other walking.

So yes, I was more able to stay with myself with the other. See, I abandoned myself with the other. This time, I was more able to remain true to myself while also being with the other.

Most of the time, I spent time with other people, but I was dipping in and out. I was more free to go, okay, I am going to go, or yeah, I will meet you there, whatever. I was able to be with myself. I was very mindful that I need to do this. This is a muscle I have developed, and I need to practice it. I need to stretch. I need to get stronger.

Danny

Where did we meet again? Do you recall?

Emma

Was it Molinaseca? The town with the river as you walk in over the medieval bridge?

Danny

I do not recall. I recall meeting the people, but I do not know anymore where it was.

Emma

I have a very vivid picture of it in my head. I am just not sure if it was Molinaseca or not. You walk in, there is a medieval bridge, a medieval village, and a river. There were a couple of restaurants by the river. There was a plaza there, and we met there.

Danny

That is after the Iron Cross?

Emma

Yeah, I think so. Anyway, it does not matter.

I had trouble with my knees. I have always had trouble with my knees. I was able to keep going. The last time we met on the Camino, I had hit a wall. I said, I cannot go anymore. I do not know if you remember. We met in that little town, in the little plaza.

I had so many blisters. My knees were really troubling me. My ankles were hurting. My hips were sore. Everything was sore. I was in a bad way. I said, I actually cannot get up and walk tomorrow. I could barely walk across the plaza without significant pain.

I did not know what I was going to do, if I was going to finish up. I did not feel like I wanted to finish up. I was not ready to finish up, but I did not know how I could go on. The next day was the day up and into O Cebreiro.

Danny

O Cebreiro. The place where I am married. Twenty fourteen. The inventor of the yellow arrow is buried up there. He was born there and is buried up there. He got old yellow paint from the council and went spraying arrows.

Emma

That walk from where I was to O Cebreiro was thirty one something kilometers, and it is up through the mountains and over into Galicia. It is a beautiful walk, but it is very hard.

I could barely walk across the plaza the night before, and I was like, I do not know how I am going to go. I went back to the albergue. I got some sleep. I do not sleep very well in the albergues, but again, that is part of the process.

I got up the next morning and I said, I do not know where I am going to go, but I know I cannot stay here. I just have to move on from here. Even if I need a boost. I put on my boots, and I just started walking.

I do not know how the hell I did it. But by God, I walked up and over, and into Galicia. There was a little monument as you arrive into Galicia. It was late. It took me about ten hours to do that walk that day. It was near sunset by the time I arrived into O Cebreiro. There were very few people on the path.

Danny

What you just described is what I call the second wind. I have done quite a lot of workshops. One of the workshops was that you needed to jump up and down with your legs and your hand in the air for twenty minutes, at high speed, lifting up your legs with your knees straight. That is really tough. After fifteen minutes you think, I cannot anymore. I need to stop. Then you get a small break for two minutes, and then you start again.

Suddenly, some energy comes from I do not know where. Then you can do the other twenty minutes. Not with a breeze, but you can do it. I experienced after that more consciously that when I really think I cannot do it anymore, and you just take a break, like you did with resting and sleeping a little bit, then you can start and somehow the body finds energies and a way to cope with the next step. So you had a very specific moment of a second wind.

Emma

Absolutely. I did not see myself getting there that day. I was just like, I will keep going. I will go on to the next bit. I had no agenda. It would be really cool if I got there, but it is not going to happen. And it did.

I firmly believe that it was my ability to be in the moment. To notice what was coming up for me, notice what was going on, take one step at a time, listen to my body. If I felt I needed to stop and have a rest, take my socks off, maybe put on dry socks, sit down, have a cup of coffee, or if I wanted to keep going because there were too many people, I just did it.

I think I walked that day entirely by myself. That was maybe one of the only days last year that I walked entirely by myself. It was profound. Again, it is something that is still processing.

As I walked over into Galicia and saw the marker, because you are now into another region, the rainy area, and it is very like Ireland. It is lots of green fields. The landscape is so different. It is hillier. It is greener. It is rainier. It is another region. It is another milestone. I did it. I walked through something. I found those regional boundaries important.

Danny

Did you manage then last year all the way to Santiago?

Emma

I got to three days outside of Santiago, which was way further than I thought I would get to. So I still need to go one more time to finish it off.

I could have stopped beforehand, but I did not want to. I wanted to keep walking. I stopped walking the day before I was flying home. Actually, I walked a little bit the day I was flying home. I walked right up until I had no more time to walk, because I did not want to stop. I just wanted to keep walking.

It was not that I wanted to keep walking to keep up with other people. I just wanted to keep walking because it was moving stuff. It was helpful and healthy, and I was enjoying it even though I was enduring it. It was tough, but I knew there was processing going on.

I got to three days outside of Santiago. I had calculated a few days beforehand that if I did longer days, I could make it there. But I was like, that is not the point of it. So I walked until I ran out of days. Then I said, right, I am going to pick up from here.

I got a bus from there into Santiago the day I was flying home. I was afraid that if I stopped too far out, I would never walk again. I was really concerned about that. I wanted to keep going.

Where I have stopped, I will fly into Santiago, go back three days in the bus, pick up from there. But my intention is to walk on to the sea.

Danny

Okay.

Emma

When I got to Santiago in twenty eleven, everyone said, are you going out to Finisterre? And I said, no. I live here at the sea. I do not need to go walk to see the sea. I am never walking again. This time it is really important for me to walk to the sea and swim.

Danny

If I listen to your story, because you went multiple times, and that is logical because you are still working. I am retired, so I can take two months off. For me, I see a very red line in the whole thing. It is like an enormous struggle. The struggle of life and the struggle to find yourself back again.

It is not only in one Camino, but actually multiple Caminos. Coming back, not allowed to walk because something happens, you need to go away, then you come back. For me, it feels like one big struggle of life presented there in the Camino, and also a big struggle to go to yourself, to your inner place.

How is it now for you?

Emma

I have gone back to work. Since I came back from the Camino in October, I have gone back to work. I started part time and I am slowly building up. My ambition has been around April or May to go back, do those three days into Santiago, walk out to Finisterre, up to Muxía, and then back into Santiago. That will be about ten days walking. I will take two weeks leave and do it.

Then that Camino will be complete for me. It is still a work in progress, but again, it is a really good analogy for what is going on internally for me as well, in my therapeutic journey, self reflection, processing stuff. Trying to figure out how do I be me? Who am I? How do I be me when I am not abandoning myself to meet the other? Being everybody else’s needs ahead of my own. That is a good thing to do at times, but you cannot pour from an empty cup. You need to be able to resource yourself before you can resource others.

By the time I went out of work two years ago, I was not able to resource.

Danny

What I noticed myself is that I also worked in your field of work. Not exactly the same way, but a similar field. And also in IT, I coached small teams and huge teams. It is so easy to lose yourself.

At the moment you lose yourself, it is actually kind of a reflex to do it. You need to become really self aware to be aware that you have that reflex. Then you can decide, okay, I will be with that other person, but I am also with myself there. Then it changes.

Because you mentioned, you cannot pour from an empty cup. But then the cup will never be empty because you will be there with yourself. You can stay with other people and not feel your energy being drained, because it will not go out in that way. Does that make sense?

Emma

If you can find ways to fill your cup, but also to empty it, because you cannot take it all in. Equally, you cannot give it all out if you are not putting something in.

Danny

Now another thing pops up in my mind, because since two thousand nine I have been busy with quantum physics. If you go through the analogy of the cup, the cup in the first place was never filled with anything. So it cannot be emptied. You can also say it is always filled, and you can pour out because there is so much there. That now becomes a little bit spiritual, but it is not, because this is quantum mechanics. Actually, the cup can never empty because there is an endless amount of energy there.

Emma

Absolutely. But I think the cup gets blocked. Stuff gets stuck in it. Then the energy cannot move through it. If all of a sudden the cup is filled with cement, I know on a quantum level we can talk about how things can move through objects, but for me, I was very stuck.

I hit the wall, and I could not keep going. In the two bits of the Camino that I have done in the time that I was off work, and now going back to work and looking at the next stage, it is the permission to take a break. You do not always have to be doing. You do need to rest. You do need to stop and take stock every once in a while. You need to let people help you. You need to get out of your own way sometimes.

I think the Camino is such an important analogy for life. I thought it was a good analogy for my training program, but it is bigger than that. It is life. There are days when you are walking by yourself. There are days when you are surrounded by people and you are in the middle of it and feel held and contained and met and seen and heard. And there are days when you are surrounded by people and feel like the loneliest person in the world.

There are days where it is plain sailing and there are days where there are rough seas.

Danny

It is so insane actually, because it is so simple. You just have your gear and your walk. And it is hard to do. It is easy to do, and it is nice. If you think about it, it is just so simple, but it is so profound and has such a big effect.

Emma

Since I have come back from my last Camino, I have invested in a pair of good quality leather boots. It just struck me that for the first time ever, having completed two Caminos, I now have more robust boots to walk my next Camino.

Danny

This is very important because actually, it is so difficult to take care of yourself. You buy boots on sale. But when you buy really good boots, you have less trouble with your knees, fewer blisters. This is also a very nice metaphor. How difficult it is to take care of yourself.

That was one of the lessons I was struggling with on my last Camino. I said to my wife many times, I now notice how difficult it is to take care of myself. And actually, you show your shoes. Delivered proof.

Emma

My first pair of Camino boots are over here. They split across where the toe bends. They owe me nothing. I did not invest.

It is like a car. Where the car meets the road. You can have the best car in the world. If your tires are shit, good luck to you. It is the same with the boots. It would be great if we could really connect with nature and go barefoot, but do not ever do the Camino barefoot. The importance of good footwear, good gear, good food, good rest. In other words, take care of yourself.

The days when I do not feel like I deserve to look after myself are the hardest days to go through. If I force myself on those bad days to have something healthy to eat, drink water, have a rest, take a shower if I feel like shit, whatever it is, do something that helps set you up to move forward in a more connected way, where you are giving yourself permission to take up your space in the world.

I think that is what the Camino has really taught me. There is space for everybody. We do not all have to do it the same way.

Danny

Everybody walks his own Camino.

Emma

I met people in wheelchairs who were hand pedaling up mountains on my first Camino. I met people in their eighties who throw on a pack and off they go, while I am crippled walking by them. I met people who have a tiny little small bag on their back and get all their stuff brought forward.

Danny

On my first Camino in twenty thirteen, I was standing on Monte do Gozo, the mountain before Santiago where you see the cathedral. There was a guy from Japan, I think. His feet were so swollen that he could not wear shoes anymore. He had flip flops, and his feet were pouring over the flip flops. He was shoveling his feet one step after the other, and he did not stop.

I thought, sometimes you need to protect people against themselves. This was not healthy at all. It is so difficult to get away from things like, I am an old man, but I can do twenty five kilometers a day. It was so difficult for me last year to say, I cannot do twenty five kilometers a day. I can do fifteen to twenty. That is okay.

Before I could accept that, I was already walking four hundred kilometers or something. It took such a long time to acknowledge who I am and accept that part and just be that.

Emma, we really need to take care of your time, because otherwise you get in trouble.

Emma

I was actually going to walk to my next place, but now I am going to cheat and drive.

Danny

We have ten minutes. Is there something you really want to say to your fellow pilgrims? Something you really want to share?

Emma

I am going to preface this with, physician heal thyself, practice what you preach. It is so simple and the hardest thing in the world to do. But try to use the experience of doing the Camino and bring it through to your life after the Camino.

Try to not be so quick to judge yourself or others. It is a bit of a trope now, be kind, you do not know what everybody else is going through. But it is deeper than that.

I noticed on both Caminos the shift in mentality of fellow pilgrims on arrival into Sarria. As you get closer to Santiago, it gets busier and busier. There are so many different types of Caminos. It is like society. There are so many different layers of society. On the Camino, you are all squished into a tiny little path with limited resources.

There are people who are doing the tourist Camino. There are people doing it because they want to do it the quickest they can get there. I am going to get there in twenty days. I want to do it this way. I want to do it that way. Everybody does their own Camino. It is not a competition. If anything, you are in competition with yourself. You are trying to find out who you are and to chip away at the shit you might have accumulated.

Danny

But also when somebody is doing it as a competition, that is their Camino.

Emma

That is their Camino. If somebody needs to get a bus, if somebody needs to get a taxi, if somebody needs to get their bag brought on, it is their Camino. And even if somebody is not reflecting, or they are not going into the church, it does not matter.

Danny

Now we are touching something. When I started to write the script for the introduction podcast, I got a revelation. I have a background in psychology and coaching. I thought, oh, this is so powerful, because at the moment we can have the skill of self reflection, then we do not judge anymore.

We can judge somebody on what the person is doing to achieve the goal. But the intention of the person itself is most of the time something benign. Most of the time. I have met people in my life who tried to get my company bankrupt. At that time, I could have taken his head off. But now it is different, because now I can understand the intention he had. The way he did it, that needs to be stopped. But the intention behind it is something else.

That is what I noticed with the Camino and also when I was writing the script for the introduction podcast. I thought, oh, this is so powerful, because self reflection is really the key to move to non judgement. And non judgement, when I have no judgement towards you, we experience that as unconditional love from the other person.

That does not mean you need to cope with everything the person is doing. You still need to stop destructive behavior. But the connection with the person is still there. That came while writing the script. That is why I am so driven by putting these podcasts with many pilgrims out, because I now understand that just by listening to many fellow pilgrims, one after the other moves to self reflection, non judgement, and a different world. We start programming the brain in a different way. That is so powerful, and I did not realize that at all.

I thought when I started with it, oh, that is a good idea. Then writing the script of the introduction, I thought, oh, this can be much more than just listening to the stories of other pilgrims. You are touching that as well. So that is actually the core of why I do this now.

Emma

For me, we are so quick to judge because we have to. We are constantly judging because we have to, in order to make sense of the world. Otherwise we cannot survive. We have to make judgment calls.

Often we are conditioned to not listen to our internal instinct, our good instinct. We are conditioned to express that you have to do this, you have to do that. Then we start making snap judgments and we stop thinking about why we are making those judgments.

If the Camino has taught me anything, it is to catch myself in those moments and ask, what am I expecting? If I am expecting something of myself or somebody else, and I or they do not meet that need or expectation, that leads to disappointment.

I can stop that disappointment from happening if I see things in a more holistic way. With judgments, we take shortcuts. We go from A to C and cut out B. We take the most direct line. We do that with ourselves, and we miss out on an awful lot by judging. We lose context.

I do not know anybody who has done the Camino who has not tried to figure something out. I have not met anybody on the Camino who has not been trying to figure something out. They may not know it when they go over, because they may be doing a tour.

Danny

I recorded the podcast with William from Boston, and it is released today. That is so interesting because he started the Camino because he was retired like me. He thought, I give myself a kind of awesome adventure. William and I met each other at San Antón, the old ruined monastery. We had an amazing experience there in San Antón.

He said he was so confused. He said, I did not sign up for this. This is not the idea. He started with something else, like a nice trip to reorganize a little bit and think about his life. Suddenly, the Inner Camino hit him really hard.

Now it is already months later. We had a talk and the recording. He still says it was such a profound experience, not only the experience, but the impact it has. Also on his life. I asked him what the effect is for him in his daily life. He could tell that. He also mentioned that it is not finished yet. The effects are still rippling out.

Emma

Absolutely. My final thing that I would like to sign off on is this. The Camino does not give you what you want. It gives you what you need.

I went on my first one thinking, it will be nice and white. It is a trip through Spain, beautiful scenery. I will just go on my own. I will go to the beat of my own drum. But it gave me what I needed.

Then I picked it up and went back. Each time it has given me what I needed. There was one day I walked in rain, and literally I could pour water out of my boots by the time I arrived. The civil defense stopped me and asked, are you okay? I said, I have two hours of walking to do, and I have three hours of daylight. They said, yes, but the rain. I squeezed out my jacket and said, I am fine. I need this. This fits me. It is good.

They were like, are you sure? I said, yeah, I am good. The Camino gave me what I needed, not what I wanted.

Danny

In that way, the Camino is like a parent, because a parent gives the kids what they need and not what they want. Sometimes that is really harsh. I say the same to my kids. I have four, and they did not like me many times because I told them, this is what you need, and this is not what you want.

They hated me sometimes for that. In some occasions, one of the kids told me years later, I was so angry with you that day because of that and that happened, but now I understand. Actually, the Camino is similar like that.

Emma

Absolutely. That day when my leg popped and I could hear it squeak, that forced me to stop and reflect and go, I have now actually injured myself because I am trying to keep up with other people. How far do I need to go?

I did not stop learning that lesson. I have learned that lesson again multiple times since. But each time I am like, oh shit, here I am again.

There is a poem about walking down a road and there is a hole, and you do not see the hole and fall in. Its origins are in addiction, but it is powerful. We make the same mistakes over and over again. We can know something and still make the same mistakes. But it is reflecting, being aware, and practicing the muscle.

Danny

When the podcast is online on the website, there is a possibility to put comments below it. So if you want to give links and things like that, you can put it there. That is the easiest way to do it.

Okay, Emma. I think I need to protect you against the time.

Emma

Protect me from me.

Danny

We could do this, I mean, we talked before and we have so much to share. Maybe we will come back again and pick up again some other time. And then you visit me in the Inner Camino House.

Emma

Yes. I cannot wait. I am so excited for that.

Danny

Me too. Thank you again very much that you want to participate.

Emma

No problem. I loved it.

Danny

We will talk and meet each other for sure again.

Emma

For sure. Best of luck with the stuff that is coming up and going forward with this podcast. The world needs it. It is great.

Whether you are walking the Camino right now, or preparing for it, or perhaps you are back home, and maybe even suffering from PCS, the Post Camino Syndrome.

I hope that this podcast inspires you. And if so, do NOT keep it to yourself.

SHARE IT!

When you share this podcast, you ACTIVELY help spread the skill of Self-Reflection.

Every person who learns the skill of Self-Reflection begins to see people differently.

You may still question WHAT someone DOES.

But the judgment about their INTENTION starts to disappear. And you enter the realm of non-judgement.

And non-judgment is experienced as unconditional love.

That is how REAL change begins.

With you.
Then the people around you.
Your city.
Your province.
Your country.
Your continent.
And eventually,
the world.

That is why ACTIVELY spreading the skill of Self-Reflection, like an unstoppable virus, is SO important.

So please, do NOT just listen, but ACT on this call, and share it with as MANY people and on as MANY platforms as you can, TODAY.

For new episodes, go to https://www.innercaminohouse.com

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You will ALSO find the link in the show notes.

Thank you for listening, and Buen Camino.